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Late-term Abortions: Facts, Stories, and Ways to Help

Jodi Jacobson's picture

Author's Note: This post was updated at 3:06 pm on June 3rd, to clarify a sentence earlier referring to the third trimester.  The sentence now reads "There are different definitions of what constitutes a "late term abortion," but  most definitions refer to abortions at or after 24 weeks or in the third trimester."

In all the extensive coverage of the assassination in his church of Dr. George Tiller by a murderer affiliated with extremist right-wing groups, little has been said to shed light on what late-term abortions are, who has them and why. 

Instead, much of the media and talking heads pontificating on this subject have constantly focused on Tiller's being "one of the very few doctors who perform late-term abortions," without providing any context as to why he did so and under what circumstances. 

As a result, the dominant narrative is one which perpetuates an assumption that people are electing to have late-term abortions for the sake of convenience.  This public perception is shaped by the constant intonement that Tiller was "killing babies" coming from irresponsible journalistic hacks like Bill O'Reilly, the suggestions by Chris Matthews that women are blithely electing to abort fetuses that are viable outside the womb, and the statements of inconsistent moralizers like Will Saletan that "there are cases where there's no real medical situation other than some teenager in denial and it went on for five months [where the argument is] you should make an exception because of the so-called mental health of the girl." 

The narrative is one in which women are shamed for choosing abortion, no matter the circumstances, and in which Dr. Tiller is portrayed even indirectly as a despicable aide in their shame.

This narrative is so pervasive that even among those who consider themselves pro-choice, many people are left to wonder: Are these women just waking up one day, deciding over coffee they are tired of being pregnant, and opting for an abortion at 24 weeks?  Are there a lot of third trimester abortions?  Are they just, as Chris Matthews likes to call them, "elective procedures?"

In fact, in the past two days I have found the misunderstanding about late-term abortion to be widespread even among many of those in the public health advocacy community.

So here are some facts:

Late-term abortions are very rare.  About one percent of all abortions performed in the United States occur after 21 weeks.  There are different definitions of what constitutes a "late term abortion," but most definitions refer to abortions at or after 24 weeks or in the third trimester.

Late-term abortions are severely restricted by law.

In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the constitutional right to privacy extends to the decision of a woman, in consultation with her physician, to terminate a pregnancy.

The Court also determined, however, that this right is not absolute and it must be balanced against the state's legitimate interest in protecting both the health of the pregnant woman and the developing human life. Therefore, according to Roe, the state's interest in protecting potential life becomes compelling at the point of fetal viability (when the fetus has the capacity for sustained survival outside the uterus).  States are allowed to, and indeed have, severely restricted access to abortion in the third-trimester, except, as the Supreme Court has ruled, when necessary to preserve the woman's life or health.  In subsequent cases, the Court made clear that viability is a medical determination, which varies with each pregnancy, and that it is the responsibility of the attending physician to make that determination.

As the Guttmacher Institute points out in a brief on this issue, the Supreme Court has held that:

  • even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions “necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother;”
  • “health” in this context includes both physical and mental health;
  • only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define what constitutes “health” and when a fetus is viable; and
  • states cannot require additional physicians to confirm the physician’s judgment that the woman’s life or health is at risk.

What is viability?

Viability is a medical, not a legal definition.

As pointed out in another excellent brief by Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California:

A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream.

The brief continues by underscoring that:

While medical advances have increased the survival of infants born between 24 and 28 weeks of gestation, the point of viability has moved little over the past decade; at the earliest, it remains at approximately 24 weeks, where it was when the Supreme Court decided Roe -- a fact acknowledged by the court in its recent decision in PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA V. CASEY. A study of infant survival by researchers at Case Western Reserve University Medical School found that the rate of survival for infants born before 25 weeks gestation has not improved appreciably in recent years.

Most states restrict late-term abortions.

The Guttmacher brief notes that:

  •  37 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy.
  •  24 states initiate prohibitions at fetal viability.
  •  5 states initiate prohibitions in the third trimester.
  •  8 states initiate prohibitions after a certain number of weeks, generally 24. 

The circumstances under which procedures are permitted after that point vary from state to state.  For example:

  • 29 states permit abortions to preserve the life or health of the woman;
  • 4 states permit abortions to save the life or health of the woman, but use a narrow definition of health;
  • 4 states permit abortions only to save the life of the woman.


Some states require the involvement of a second physician when a later-term abortion is performed.  Nine states require that a second physician attend in order to treat a fetus if it is born alive.  Ten states require that a second physician certify that the abortion is medically necessary.

Kansas law is strict on the issue of late-term abortions.

Kansas law requires that such procedures can only be performed after viability if two independent doctors agree that not to do so would put the mother at risk of irreparable harm by giving birth.

A huge gap in the narrative.

There is a vast gap between the descriptions of Dr. Tiller by members of the extremist right -- who incite lunatics to violence by protraying Tiller as a mass murderer -- and the many women and men who have been served by Dr. Tiller, who refer to him as heroic, kind, compassionate, professional.  This gap speaks to the fact that very few--not least the mainstream media--understand what he was doing and, and more to the point, why we are asking the wrong people to comment.

In the words of one of the hundreds of people writing messages on the memorial website to Dr. Tiller:

Dr. Tiller was a hero, plain and simple. I am thankful for his life and the gift of high quality health care he provided his patients. My thoughts are with his family, friends and community and my thanks to you for your support of Dr. Tiller despite the tough cirumstances.

Dr. Tiller was one of the few doctors providing late-term abortions to people in need in part because he was a commited, ethical, moral medical professional who took seriously his oath to serve the best interests of his patients, and because he was dedicated to supporting women's rights even at the risk of his own life and even under unimaginable daily pressure and threat.  

Another poster on his memorial site states:

I think this is an absolute outrage, George Tiller was the only one I had to turn too during an awful moment in my life. He gave my life back and the choice I had to make was painful, personal, and heartwrenching. God bless his family, the church, and everyone who is hurt by this violent act. 

He also was one of the few because laws in many places restrict women's access, and because fewer and fewer doctors are trained in these life-saving operations, due to the actions of the far right.  Many doctors from out of state referred patients to Dr. Tiller and many revered him.

If you listen to the voices of women served, you understand far more than what the media has told us about who chooses late-term abortion and why. 

For these women and their partners, Tiller was not "an abortionist" but a life-saver.  He was a man who put himself in jeopardy to ensure that a  woman would not have to lose her life to infection or complications in an already-doomed pregnancy.  He was a doctor who ensured that women carrying a fetus with fatal or catastrophic abnormalities could make the decision--if they so chose--to spare themselves and their families the agony of watching a newborn that could not live endure countless operations and medical procedures in futile attempts to keep it "alive."  

A 2006 amicus brief prepared for Gonzales v. Planned Parenthood Federation of America, a case focused on the availability of second trimester abortions, contains a number of stories of women who had to seek out later-term abortions, such as that of Carrie, a 40-year-old woman from the Southwest who was happily married for nine years when she became pregnant.  She described the timing of her genetic testing and decision to end her pregnancy:

On November 11, 2005, I elected to have [a] CVS test. . . . Then, the test results came in. . . . We knew chromosome 14 was incompatible with life, and chromosome 22 could mean Cat Eye Syndrome. Both my husband and I wanted the baby very much, and neither one of us was willing to terminate the pregnancy on a “maybe.” . . .

I had the amnio on 12/26/05, and the results came in on Jan. 13, 2006. It confirmed without doubt – she had Cat Eye Syndrome tetrasomy in every cell of her body. The last 3 sonograms showed . . . our baby’s kidneys were beginning to malfunction. . . .We made this decision because we loved our daughter so much. We didn’t want her to suffer the definite and the untold problems she was sure to endure, if she even made it. We made the best decision we could with the information we
had. We fought for her. We wanted her. But we didn’t want to condem[n] her to [a] life of agony.

Or that of  Cara, a married Catholic woman with an almost-three-year-old son, who had “always dreamed of having a big family.”  She described the time it took to obtain information needed about her pregnancy:

I was about 17 weeks pregnant at the time. . . .[T]hey scheduled us for our Level II ultrasound a few weeks early so they could look in more detail at the baby. . . . A few days [after the ultrasound], we received the news that would change our lives forever.  Our son was infected with CMV (cytomegalovirus). This was the worst possible scenario (of the possibilities we were given). . . .  Although I have always been pro-choice, I had winced at the thought of late-term abortions or "partial birth” abortions, thinking that it was just inhumane or irresponsible. Now I know differently. In my case, we were not able to confirm our diagnosis until 19 or 20 weeks gestation. I terminated at 22 weeks. . . . I was completely heartbroken. . . . 

Numerous other such stories are contained in this brief.

Authors on RH Reality Check, such as Lynda Waddington and Susan Ito, have shared their stories about late-term abortion and the excruciatingly difficult decisions they had to make. 

Others have written at length about their experiences of finding their wanted pregnancies were doomed to fail, of facing their own possible death in carrying to term, and leaving their children without a parent.

A collection of "Kansas Stories" can be found, for example, on the site, A Heartbreaking Choice, such as that by Nicholas' Mom, by K.M., and by several others...parents who looked forward to bringing a child into their family but were faced with fetal deformities so severe their child either would not survive pregnancy, would be born only to die, or in which carrying the pregnancy to term would threaten survival of the mother.  Other stories are being collected here on RH Reality Check, Facebook, on a website memorial to Dr. Tiller and elsewhere.

None of these women made their choices lightly and it is profoundly disrespectful of them--indeed it is dangerous to women--to suggest otherwise for political gain, not to mention commit the horrific acts of violence against providers such as Dr. Tiller who help so many women and men through this agony.

What can you do?

Obviously in this climate, constant political vigilance is needed against the erosion of women's rights in law and in policy, and against the public narrative that shames women and providers, as well as against the actions of the extremist right that daily puts them at risk. This will be increasingly true in the coming months.

More immediately, in honor of Dr. Tiller and the patients he and other providers serve, we are also providing the following links to funds already set up to receive donations in his name.  We urge you to consider giving as much as you can.

Two of the funds available in memory of Dr. Tiller include:

George Tiller Memorial Abortion Fund
c/o National Network of Abortion Funds

42 Seaverns Ave.
Boston, MA 02130

Or you may donate to the Tiller Memorial Fund at NNAF online.


The Women's Reproductive Rights Assistance Project is also accepting donations in Dr. Tiller's name.  


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88 comments
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Jodi, thank you so much for writing this. You are a light in the darkness, and I hope this leads others to abandon their childish invective and learn the real story about late-term abortions.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 2, 2009 - 4:21pm.

First of all my condolences and heartfelt sympathies to the family of Dr Tiller no ones life should be taken from them. Here's a reality check for you - I have 4 children. One a daughter was born at 24.6 weeks. She is now 15. She wears glasses and has ADD. My youngest child, who is now 5, was born with Congenital CMV. I was aware of this before her birth. She is deaf, has brain damage and cerebral palsy. I was told both would most likely die or at least have no quality of life. They couldn't have been more wrong. You could not be more wrong. Life is not always easy; its path is sometimes difficult. You, yourself said "if they so chose--to spare themselves and their families the agony" That's not convenience? How sad. I find it profoundly disrespectful of you to use their circumstances to assume they were not worth saving or that I should be spared the burden of being a parent to a child with disabilities. My heroes are the doctors that gave them life and the family that loves them just as they are. Perhaps funds would better spent to educate the public about cytomegalovirus and ways to prevent it, if you are truly interested in the welfare of women and children.

Submitted by Angela Davis on June 2, 2009 - 6:51pm.

I am truly interested in the rights of individual women and men and of  couples, to make the right choices for themselves and their families, along with their doctors and their clergy-person should they have and desire to consult with one.

 

That includes my interest in your rights and abilities to make the choices you make for yourself as well as those made by the women profiled here and millions of others who have faced these circumstances.

 

I am truly interested in true choices for all people.

 

Jodi Jacobson

 

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on June 2, 2009 - 6:59pm.

Ms. Jacobson,

Please research all your facts again. I agree we should have the right to choose, but those that wait until the fetus is viable and then wish to abort for non medical reasons are shameful. Bear in mind, that those unborn children should have rights too. Too many late term abortions are done without good reason. If the health of the mother and/or child is at risk, I do feel this should be an option. But look at all of the facts. I too, have researched this topic. And far too many have been done, that should not have been allowed.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 17, 2009 - 12:51am.

Ms. Jacobson, Please research all your facts again.

This line is absolutely hilarious. You, an anonymous poster claiming no credentials or authority, are telling Jodi Jacobson of all people to recheck her facts. I suppose you also think you can beat Kobe Bryant and Lebron James in a pickup game of basketball too?

I agree we should have the right to choose, but those that wait until the fetus is viable and then wish to abort for non medical reasons are shameful.

Oh, let me guess: because they want to go to a rock concert, and that big ol' belly just won't let them fit into their favorite dress?

You're going to have to trust me when I say that you don't know enough about late-term abortions to express a meaningful opinion on them. The woman who has this kind of procedure on a whim is a myth. It's a cartoon of the anti-choice movement. She doesn't exist. The fact that you think she represents something real speaks to your ignorance of the issue. You need to learn more about it, and not from right-wing talking points, in order to understand the reality of why it exists.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 17, 2009 - 1:38am.

Without the right to make your own personal medical decisions yourself, it seems your family would not be what it is, and how you like it. 

 

Please be generous to others as you are to your family and allow them the same right to make the most personal of choices. 

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on June 2, 2009 - 9:46pm.

Your right I did have a choice, the choice was whether I wanted to become pregnant in the first place. I understand that there are circumstances where medically it might leave little option. Children who die in the womb, etc. Usually our own bodies are very good at making this decision. I never made it to term with either child. My objection was to the use of examples given in the article suggesting that a valid reason for late term abortions is because things didn't work out as I planned or as you put it, how I like it. Do you think I like the fact that my daughters have disabilities???

Perhaps people should weigh these decisions before hand. I would ask you to be more generous to the children under these circumstances. Take a look at your children, do you honestly believe that if your pregnancy hadn't gone as planned you should have terminated them? Where is the generosity in that??

Submitted by Angela Davis on June 3, 2009 - 7:57am.

Sometimes I hear anti-choicers say "What about the baby? The baby doesn't get a choice!" Well, yes, that's correct! The potential parents have to make choices on behalf of all involved. And I have known several people with severe disabilities who - with a religious belief that their soul would have been given another chance to come into their family at a better time for all - think that their parents should have terminated their pregnancy when severe disabilities were discovered, but they weren't given that choice because they were UNBORN. If your religious belief does not support that or has other nuances, obviously you should not terminate a pregnancy when severe disabilities are discovered. But legislating others actions based on YOUR belief seems a bit crazy.

The idea that we should be at the whims of "nature" (your comment about how our body makes decisions for us) and never be active moral agents participating in decisions denies the fact that you and I, as human beings, are part of nature! Women should not have to passively wait for God/nature/the Fates/whatever to do things to them without any involvement in directing things, just as women shouldn't have to passively allow any man who comes by to impregnate her. We are blessed to have the capacity to participate in the process of life alongside God and nature and all the other forces in our world.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 11:39am.

is the generosity in allowing other women to determine the course of their own lives? I would not tell you how to clean your HOUSE, much less tell you whether or not you HAD to bear a child you either did not want, did not feel you could care for, or whose birth might cost you your own life!

A little generosity for desperate women is most definitely in order here. I too would never opt for an abortion myself, and in fact also had a child under dire circumstances who proved extremely difficult--and yes, rewarding--but I would NEVER presume to tell someone else that I knew better than she how to live her life.

You have NO RIGHT to make the most crucial decision in a woman's life for her, especially women you will never meet, never bear the consequences for, don't even know or understand, and certainly obviously don't care a whit about.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 6:17pm.

Bullcrap!

Submitted by Anonymous on August 11, 2009 - 1:00pm.

Thank you for showing the value of all persons! A child does not have value simply because the parent wants him or her. All people have value regardless of ability. The thinking behind this article and the other comments scares me immensely! Why don't we kill all mentally handicapped people? Why don't we test for any kind of abnormality or deficiency before birth so we can only have perfect children and create a perfect race? Do those ideals sound familiar?

Submitted by Shauna Dye on June 3, 2009 - 12:42am.

Well Said. I am so tired of the media tainting the truth. I applaud you for your efforts as a mother. Your children are very lucky to have you.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 17, 2009 - 12:45am.

When a mother's life is in danger and she already has living children, what should she do? Should her life be taken and her living children motherless? There are no easy answers. I for one am against abortion as a form of birth-control. To me it should be used sparingly as god says he has known from the time we were conceived into our mother's womb. One hundred years ago a baby could not survive if born more than two months early, even then it was a long shot.. NOW however, we have babies surviving at 24 and 25 weeks of pregnancy. What if in 100 years from now, a premature baby at 15 or 18 weeks of pregnancy survives due to advancedf technology? What will we say then?
It is a complicated issue... BUT it is not up to me or you to decide.. Our beliefs cannot and should not be forced upon one another... we each have our own relationships with God if we even have one.. and what we choose to do should be between us and our maker... and not the general public.

Submitted by thank you for the additional insight on June 2, 2009 - 7:46pm.

Thank you for this post Jodi. Seeing clips of Bill O'Reilly say that late term abortions are "never necessary to save the woman's life" and then claiming that this statement was a fact is so hard to hear. I am glad you are sharing the truth. Dr. Tiller is a hero, he helped thousands of women and families. His memory will live on in the pursuit of reproductive justice and choice for all people, whether that be in continuing a pregnancy or ending one.

Thank you again Dr. Jacobson

Submitted by Shannon E O'Malley on June 2, 2009 - 7:52pm.
Thank you very much for your note. However, I am not a doctor, and don't want to perpetuate any misinformation on that title. But thanks for your note and appreciation of our work. Jodi
Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on June 2, 2009 - 10:06pm.

Shannon,

It is so shameful how the media can replay clips and edit. I watch Bill O'Reilly every night and he has NEVER said that Late term abortions are never necessary to save the woman's life. He is not disputing that sometimes it is MEDICALLY necessary. What he has an issue with are those that wait until 28 weeks and decide, I do not want this child and have no medical issues. That is a problem. If you want an abortion for other than a medical reasons, do it in the beginning. why wait until the 3rd trimester and have a partial birth and destroy a fully capable breathing child? I love the way people distort the truth..

Submitted by Anonymous on June 17, 2009 - 1:00am.

Late term abortions are defined as somewhere after 24 to 26 weeks rather than the 21 weeks you state. This would coincide with the beginning of the third trimester. Good info otherwise.

Submitted by one correction on June 2, 2009 - 8:39pm.

There is in fact disagreement on what time-frame is included in the the term "late-term" abortion from the standpoint of public policy and public discourse and as I worked on this piece I found various definitions from various sources, all respected sources.  Moreover, legal restrictions in effect in at least one state apply to pregnancy before the third trimester that do not comport with the test of "viability."  North Carolina for example restricts abortions after 20 weeks and these may only be performed in cases of threats to the life and health of the mother.

I think that if we took Roe as a guidepost in its most basic form, "late-term" abortion would refer to those procedures at or after 24 weeks as Roe noted viabilty as the determining factor.  And I debated using "later-term" abortion, or as Dr. Warren Hern has suggested, simply "late abortion."

But even later second-trimester abortions are harder to procure and carry great social stigma created by the far right's spread of misinformation, so I chose here for the purposes of this piece to refer to late-term abortion as being those performed after 21 weeks, as per the breakdown provided in the Guttmacher fact sheet.

 

Thanks for writing and suggesting this clarification of the way the term is used here and elsewhere.

Best wishes,

 

Jodi

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on June 2, 2009 - 8:57pm.

Only 2% of late term abortions are due to fetal problems!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]

* 71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
* 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
* 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
* 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
* 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
* 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
* 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
* 6% Woman didn't know timing is important
* 5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
* 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
* 11% Other

Submitted by teresag on June 2, 2009 - 9:27pm.

in the context of this piece.

I will read back through the Guttmacher data you reference, but in any case your data are incorrect in the context of this piece.  This is not a discussion of abortions legally allowed at the discretion of the mother, 16 weeks is not a late term abortion, 90 percent of all abortions occur in the first trimester, and only 1.1 percent from 21 weeks and beyond.

The data you cite are not comparable to the issues addressed here and are not relevant here.

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on June 2, 2009 - 9:43pm.

Jodi's article was talking about the rare kind of 3rd trimester abortions that Dr. Tiller did that few others will do, not the 2nd trimester abortions that constitute the majority of data you're coughing up.  Sure, many of the 16 week abortions (which are still a tiny fraction of all abortions---89% of abortions are performed in the first trimester) are elective.  But the abortions that Jodi covers here are about 1% of all abortions, and they are all medically indicated. 

 

I'm incredibly troubled by the misogyny that would motivate people to push those facts, which are quite sympathetic to women if taken in context, as if they are solid evidence that the entire female gender (barring a few reformed anti-choice women) is a fallen sex, horrible and hateful to a degree that we simply cannot allow them basic human rights, because they're too stupid and mean to deserve them.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on June 2, 2009 - 9:54pm.

Maybe you should read what is posted at the actual Guttmacher Institute site and stop relying on factually-inaccurate sources like Wikipedia.



ANYONE can manipulate the data presented at Wikipedia, and in light of Dr. Tiller's murder, who's to say groups like Operation Rescue aren't being vigilant at changing the Late Term Abortion article?

Wikipedia is never an acceptable source for ANYTHING to be taken seriously... although it can link you to some REAL sources. Check this article for citations.

Submitted by L on June 3, 2009 - 10:43am.

When is wikipedia the place to get your facts? Also your "facts" are 20+ years old.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 10, 2009 - 8:41pm.

Perhaps a few feathers will ruffle here but so what. In the context of playing Advocatus Diaboli with regard to sainthood for Dr. Tiller, some questions arise to why other doctors refused to do the abortions that Tiller was willing to do.

Were their motivations issues of medical exigencies they were incapable of combatting or were they actually rejecting the abortions owing to personal moral values since they found no credible threat to the mother or child apart from the mother's life style? In this period of mourning, is everyone here asserting that NONE of Dr. Tiller's abortions were medically unecessary?

We need to acknowledge that 92% of all abortions are issues of a threat to the mother's life style and do not involve some medical difficulty. There is no evidence that some of these 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions aren't elective. Health of mother can be construed to mean a severe depression over the fact that the stretch marks would make the woman unbecoming even with botox treatments.

Submitted by Dryden01 on June 2, 2009 - 10:45pm.

Dryden,

You write:

some questions arise to why other doctors refused to do the abortions that Tiller was willing to do.

Please read the article.  I clearly state the following:laws regarding late-term abortions are restrictive in many states.  Moreover, many are not trained to provide these health care services.  Finally, there are few people willing to put their lives on the line to provide medical care when extremists are hounding them every day and threatening to kill them.  Dr. Tiller was one of the few.

In this period of mourning, is everyone here asserting that NONE of Dr. Tiller's abortions were medically unecessary? We need to acknowledge that 92% of all abortions are issues of a threat to the mother's life style and do not involve some medical difficulty. There is no evidence that some of these 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions aren't elective.

You confuse the issue.  By law 2nd trimester abortions are legal and are the domain of the woman, her doctor and her family.  This article is about late-term abortions.  And as clearly noted in this piece, two independent medical professionals had to confirm that any 3rd trimester procedure performed was medically indicated.  I want to know how it is that you feel you can decide what is happening in the lives of these women better than they can, their doctors at home, the doctors in Kansas, their families and their clergy?

Health of mother can be construed to mean a severe depression over the fact that the stretch marks would make the woman unbecoming even with botox treatments.

This comment alone reveals your misogynistic and profoundly disrespectful view toward women.

 

Jodi Jacobson

 

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on June 3, 2009 - 7:22am.

1. Kansas requires data for every abortion performed its all available online. That data clearly shows over half of the late term abortions conducted are not done to save the mother. But are based on the grounds of "mental impairment". Check out in particular the 1988 data.

2. The laws that restrict late term abortions due to "health" of the mother include "mental" issues (at least in Kansas,only 4 states demand the danger be physical in nature. Tiller himself and his spokespeople have stated most of his late term abortions were performed on teenagers not prepared to have a child. He has stated that infringement on ones career constitutes detrimental harm to ones health.

3. There is absolutely nothing preventing someone from getting an abortion at 26 weeks without any risk of physical harm or fetal deformity. And all objective data on the subject implies this occurs a good deal of the time.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 7:45am.

1% of all abortions are thousands. A very big deal if these late term abortions are anything but necessary to save the mother's life.

bottom line...we all know this procedure is murder. the guy was a murderer and its good that he's dead. justice was undoubtedly served. he won't take any more innocent lives

are all these procedures necessary to save the mother's life? c'mon your rationalizations are so transparent. oreilly or not. murderer got murdered. let's all moveon.org!

Submitted by vinny on June 2, 2009 - 11:02pm.

If you are a Christian, I hope you realize that you just denied original sin (with the word "innocent"). As for the rest of the comment, thanks for showing the true colors of all involved. If you believe you should be able to force a woman to continue a pregnancy against her will (to save one potential person's life), I hope you also believe you should be forced to donate blood and organs against your will (to save several already-born people's lives).

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 11:44am.

I'd already read Susan Ito's story in Choice, a book about pregnancy decisions. But what I don't think people here are willing enough to admit is that women terminate pregnancies because the fetus has a livable disability that will not cause suffering, which is the cause of the greatest ire from disability advocates.

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on June 2, 2009 - 11:43pm.

based on your own personal circumstances.

 

As I am assuming you are not omniscient and hopefully are not claiming to be god, then you do not know, nor have the right to know or determine what circumstances women faced in making these decisions, what advice they got from their medical professional(s), nor what life choices they were facing.

And that is the point: It is not for you to decide.

 

Jodi Jacobson

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on June 3, 2009 - 7:25am.

It does seem, doesn't it, that people are upset because THEY weren't consulted and THEIR decision didn't get to be enforced on certain women. Why do people think THEY should be the ones to decide for another person whether or not her body should continue a pregnancy? Do they also think they should be consulted before a woman becomes pregnant? Gives birth? Should they be able to force a woman to have an abortion just as they think they should be able to force a woman to continue a pregnancy?

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 11:49am.

Jodi,

Are you seriously trying to say every single one of Tiller's late term abortions were medically necessary? ARe you that ideologically blind? Look at the stats..

some were necessary and some were NOT>>>>

Submitted by Joyce be on June 17, 2009 - 1:10am.

I am perfectly willing to admit it. I'm one of those women who would abort based on carrying a fetus with a livable disability, because I'm personally not capable, emotionally or probably financially, of caring for that child. So while that disability itself would not cause suffering for the child, having a child with a severe disability (and let's face it, there's no way of know how severe the issues will be in many, many cases until after birth) would cause serious suffering for me and my family. And besides that, how is it not suffering to bring a child into the world to a family, and a mother, who will grow to resent him/her and all the extra emotional, mental, and physical stress caring for said child would bring. I'm just not able to do it.

And don't tell me that my feeling this way means that I hate all disabled people and wish they weren't ever born or whatever the hell strawman you want to throw up here. I do a lot of work with severely mentally/physically disabled kids (and I'm talking anywhere from mild to moderate Downs syndrome/ASD to barely conscious/sentient) and I really enjoy it and I love most of those kids. But I get to come home to my family where the most I have to deal with is a developmentally normal, slightly rambunctious almost 4 year old and a mouthy, too smart for my own good 7 year old. If I had to live with those kids and basically devote my life to their care and nothing else (which, let's face it, it's what their parents have to do to give the kids a decent quality of life most of the time), I would not be even remotely able to handle it. My marriage would be wrecked, I'd end up resenting my child, and feeling enormous guilt over it. Quite frankly, it is better for such a child to not be born into my family.

Submitted by ks on June 14, 2009 - 6:59pm.

I completely respect your decision to not feel up to raising a disabled child. What I'm wondering is why you never mentioned adoption as an alternative. Believe it or not, there are people in this world who would open their home to a disabled newborn. Besides, you can never with 100% accuracy diagnose a disability in the womb.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 14, 2009 - 11:10pm.

Frankly, it's because I wouldn't put myself, my husband, or my already born children through that. It would be a form of torture, even more than making the decision to undergo a late term abortion, to carry a child, any child, to term, give birth to it, and then give it up. I couldn't handle it. Call me weak if you want, but that's just the way it is for me.

Submitted by ks on June 15, 2009 - 10:20am.

Yes, I know this ridiculous history from opponents of abortions "you just have killed Beethoven" - here only opponents of abortions forget, that on one Beethoven in similar families one hundred murderers which, in turn, left on the big road was born and have killed there other talented people are not known how many...

Submitted by Martin Lord on July 19, 2009 - 6:27pm.

So why not give the child up for adoption instead of having it killed? There ARE waiting lists of people willing to adopt a child with handicaps...It's better for the child to be dead to avoid YOU pain and heartache? How sad and selfish...

Submitted by Anonymous on June 15, 2009 - 7:12pm.

Why force women to be incubators for other women?

Submitted by Anonymous on June 15, 2009 - 8:38pm.

I'm so glad someone took the time to dispel the myth of thousands of women suddenly deciding they really don't want a baby after all, even after 21 weeks of carrying it.

The anti-choice extremists have long painted this ridiculous picture for the public. Some people are gullible enough to believe it. Sadly, even after this latest tragedy, some are too invested in this myth to accept the truth.

God bless the courageous souls who've come forward in the past few days to debunk this nonsense.

Submitted by Stephen Stocker on June 3, 2009 - 5:34am.

There is absolutely nothing preventing a woman getting a late term abortion "because they want to". In fact by all available data the amount of late term abortions Tillman performed indicates that almost half of them were done for no physical reason at all. Tillman himself has said 3/4ths of his patients were young teens who were not ready for a child. This corresponds to AGI poll and the data required to be filled for every abortion in Kansas.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 8:01am.

First, I don't know who this "Tillman" you refer to is. Second, not all abortions are late-term abortions. Third, who are you to decide which conditions (youth and dangerously small body size? depression that will lead to suicide if pregnancy-unfriendly meds can't be taken? cancer?) justify an abortion? YOU DON'T GET TO MAKE THAT CHOICE. You really aren't that important in the situation. It's hard for people today to hear, I know, but it's true. You aren't relevant to a woman's decisions about how her body will or will not be used in the process of creating life.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 11:53am.

Perhaps you could provide a cite to this "all available data"?

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on June 3, 2009 - 10:25am.

I think that this is a great article with some important information in it.

If as some of you are pointing out that "most women" that receive late term abortions do so just because it threatens their life style, let me ask you this... If we taught or teens comprehensive sex education that was age appropriate and provided them with long active reversible birth-control such as implanon and IUD's could we avoid most of these arguments? If there was better access to routine health care and family planning services could we prevent even more late term abortions? Let's work on that together, oh yep but wait there are some people that fight against abortion and birth-control where does that leave the majority of the population that has sex?

I think that more people need to have compassion, life is not black and white, who are you to say what my life would be like in this circumstance? Who are you to push your religious beliefs on me? Who are you to not afford me the freedoms you have? and why should I allow you into my doctor patient relationship and take away my autonomy, will you allow me to do the same to you? Can I choose for you if you are in agony every day, no matter what the reason, to make you continue in that path? If you beat your children everyday should you be a parent again?

There is so much that goes into these choices to demonize women by saying that because we chose to have sex we were asking to get pregnant, that we are inferior to make a choice about our body throws our value of life back centuries. Again I don't see men in this same situation, and yet they are the ones that preach of the damnation of abortion. Here is a quick fact from nature and god's doing. Over 3/4 of pregnancies end with natural abortions we call them miscarriages to be nice, that's god right there performing more abortions then the medical community.

NO ONE DESERVES to be gunned down and killed in this way. I would not wish this death upon a right winged extremist that preaches for the death of others that do not believe in their religious fodder. If you sit there are say he was a murderer he deserved to be murdered you are no better then the one that pulled the trigger, all you have that they don't is an intact inhibition center in your frontal cortex.

Submitted by Callie on June 3, 2009 - 10:35am.

I think it is important to know more about late term abortions and the laws surrounding them, why they are chosen etc. However, I also think the reason why there are still some "pro-life" commentators feeling confident enough to make poor attempts at dissecting these facts is because the tone of the article (and the women's rights movement recently) can *at times* seem somewhat apologetic. Not that I don't completely support the article, the facts and the need to get this information out far and wide. I do. I also think the stories are heart-wrenching, honest and need to be spread far and wide. I just feel that we have to support a woman's right to make a decision about her own body and make no apologies for it. It's my body and its my life. The state, the government, the church, God, Bill O'Reilly and no one else has the right to tell me what to do with it. Ultimately that is what is at the core of these "pro-life" (or correctly termed anti-abortion) people's arguments - they think they have some say in what some other woman does with her body. They think it is their right to tell her, after she has made the decision to have sex (how disgusting and immoral!), that they know what is best for her and the "child" which they are so invested in. Of course, most of these people aren't too invested in the child once it is born. I think George Carlin had it right when he said, "If you're pre-born, you're fine; if you're pre-school, you're f'ed." I'm getting side-tracked. Anyhow, I think the fetus is a "child" as soon as the mother feels that it is while it is still in her womb. To end with George Carlin one more time (R.I.P.), when some of these anti-abortionists "have experienced their first pregnancies and their first labor pains and they have raised a couple of children on minimum wage then I’ll be glad to hear what they have to say about abortion.” Until then, they can keep their opinions to themselves.




And to the woman who decided to keep her child with CMV, I think that is a wonderful choice that you made. However, leave your judgment at the door. You can't make that choice for every woman, and it isn't your right to just because you have been raising your child with CMV. It was fortunate you had the right to make the choice to keep it and that the state didn't decide that your child was too much of a health care burden to you or to society and that you would not be allowed to keep it if you wanted. That is what being pro-choice means. Every woman makes the correct choice for their lives and their future.

Submitted by Nikki83 on June 3, 2009 - 12:54pm.

"There is a vast gap between the descriptions of Dr. Tiller by members of the extremist right -- who incite lunatics to violence by protraying Tiller as a mass murderer -- and the many women and men who have been served by Dr. Tiller, who refer to him as heroic, kind, compassionate, professional. "

- I think it is up to you to decide if you are going to abort or not. It is legal by law and if you want to do it, you should know that it is a murder in a way, and if you still think that is your choice, no one should judge you.\

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 1:46pm.

It seems to me that a completed birth is an arbitrary line. Why should a woman's choice stop then? Why not leave the umbilical cord attached and give the doctors an opportunity to examine the baby carefully and make sure there are no medical conditions that escaped notice in the extensive prenatal testing? Virtually every story linked from this site has to do with quality of life issues for the child, rather than a threat to the life or health of the mother. If the goal is terminating an unhealthy child, I just don't understand why women's choices need to be restricted to when some part of the child is still in the womb. A much more thorough examination could be done once the child was born.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 6:07pm.

Do we hand you a sledge hammer so you can bash a full term infant's brains in, which would be legal in your scenario just because you haven't cut the umbilical cord yet?

Perhaps you would be too squeamish to do it and would like the doctor to do it for you, in another room, while you pretended it wasn't happening?

Please note folks, that realitycheck.org didn't object to or remove the previous post, which is calling for infanticide on demand of less than medically perfect children. Makes me wonder why they didn't see it as hate speech against people with disabilities. Would an editor care to comment on this?

Submitted by Anonymous on June 16, 2009 - 5:58pm.

The hard right fanatics, if they were TRULY AND HONESTLY about PRO-LIFE would have armies of grown men in the schools and churches and outside organizations INSTRUCTING AND INSISTING that especially boys and young men exercise responsible sexual expressions, protections and behaviors. THEY DON'T.

The hard right fanatics if they were truly about PROLIFE would be helping to fund and lobbying for child care and basic care for kids, as loudly as they proclaim religious righteousness. They Don't.

The hard right fanatics beat their bibles and beat their chests and gnash teeth and tear clothes so concerned and righteous about "innocent life" and yet the PEOPLE whom they pass on the streets with little ones who are struggling aren't the focus of their passionate pleas, the obvious question being, WHY NOT?

Rather they will literally and regularly insult and demean, sneer down their noses and judge people in crisis situations never having a thought that WOW that little dirty faced waif is the abortion we stopped so that what, so we can sneer and berate and belittle the woman and family struggling to make it.

I have this to say to them: YOU LOVE ALL THE BABIES UNTIL THEY ARE BORN, UNAFFECTED BY THE ARGUMENT IN TRUTH YOU SIMPLY NEED TO FEEL SUPERIOR TO OTHERS IN THIS PSEUDO-RIGHTEOUSNESS. YOU DO NOT FOOL THE REST OF US ONE LITTLE BIT!

I think we should lobby congress to force all ten year old boys to have reversible vasectomies and be able to document and prove their viability as fathers before we ALLOW them to have their little soldiers. Then these self righteous hard right fanatic men and women might get the picture for once and all THE STATE HAS NO BUSINESS INTERFERING IN A CITIZEN'S REPRODUCTIVE CHOICES!

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 9:28pm.

just sad...

Submitted by Anonymous on July 1, 2009 - 10:21am.

There is a public interest once the fetus has the potential for independent viability. For some strange reason, many people cannot get it through their heads that there must be legally valid medical reasons before these late term abortions may be performed. These range from already dead fetuses (I knew a woman who nearly died from a fetus that had died in the fifteenth week because her medical care at a Catholic hospital refused to remove, abort, the rotting remains.) to minors as young as ten pregnant by incest or rape who were unable to come to terms with their conditions to late term diagnoses of cancers and so on. I am the mother of a severely disabled son, now 35. I'm very glad I wasn't faced with a choice. However, I might observe that my brother, only yesterday, commented on how I may still be dealing with the aftermath of post-traumatic stress. For those with the hard choices, they have my empathy and, whatever those choices, my respect and understanding.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 10:29pm.