Progressive Prolifers at the Progressive Magazine's Hundredth Anniversary Bash

Reader diary posted by Marysia

May 5, 2009 - 1:36pm

Published under:
Marysia's picture

crossposted at Nonviolent Choice, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

 

And we weren't gate crashers, either.  We were there as part of the festivities, sometimes recognized, sometimes not, sometimes welcomed, sometimes not. 

 For starters, take two of the speakers on the official program, Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio) and political scientist Stephen Zunes. Most of the event wasn't about abortion, and these two activists were both present to speak on issues other than abortion (yes, progressive prolifers *really do* care about a whole slew of social justice issues). But their respective stances on that particular subject are a matter of public knowledge.

Anyone with Internet access can look up Marcy Kaptur's legislative record. Including her good record on labor, LGBT rights, family planning, and maternal/child health and welfare, among other recognizable-to-all progressive concerns.

Stephen supports the mission of Consistent Life, an international network of over 200 pro-every life organizations (including Nonviolent Choice). With peace psychologist Rachel MacNair, he co-edited the recent anthology Consistently Opposing Killing (Praeger, 2008). 


Rachel and I are friends who go way, way back and have long histories of our own with Consistent Life. We team-staffed a literature table for CL in the exhibit hall at the Progressive Magazine celebration. Our table featured a large, eye-catching banner: "Prolifers for Peace, Peaceworkers for Life."

And who was the very first person to approach us, when we were still setting the table up? A young man who told us he was prolife, but did not feel free to disclose this opinion in progressive circles. Throughout the day, we met a number of pro-every life women and men who also gladly outed themselves to us.

And quite a few of the people who stopped by were prochoicers who said lovely, hospitable things like, "I may not agree with you about everything, but I'm glad you're here" and "I like your kind of prolife." We had good, respectful dialogues about relieving the root causes of abortion as well as better understanding our areas of disagreement. Including not one but two long conversations with an abortion clinic escort.

Rachel and I enjoyed the overall positive climate of these exchanges. In our long pasts with this sort of thing, we have both routinely experienced some rather difficult difficulties at literature tables. Yes, not everyone of the prochoice persuasion would do this, to be sure...But numerous prochoicers have quite rudely and precipitously mistaken us for some pretty horrid things that just a little polite conversation would quickly reveal us to be decidedly not.

No doubt prochoicers who staff literature tables are also quite familiar with this sort of abruptly unloosed torrent of verbiage that leaves not one unflooded space for response or engagement or self-defense...and it's not much fun, is it?

Although, especially later, it may afford some consolations of comedy. Rachel and I still laugh about the woman who long ago ran up and sternly ordered her, "Stop taking orders from the Pope!" When in fact Rachel is a dedicated Quaker, and the Society of Friends does not even have ministers, for Christ's sake! because that mess is just too durn hierarchical and authoritarian.

We didn't know quite what to expect at the Progressive Magazine event. But not a single person came up to our table and issued one of those dreaded adhominem rants, or scolded us along the lines of "What the hell are *YOU PEOPLE* doing here? Get the f*** out!" Which has also happened, far more than once...that is, when we haven't been excluded from the event before we even got in the door.

That's progress among progressives, for real.

Now, a few folks did raise eyebrows at our banner or shake their heads and walk briskly away. And once, when I was by myself at the table, I did distinctly see and hear a pair of conferencegoers stop dead in their tracks, proclaim "Yikes!" and turn aboutface in their tracks...

As if there were not a quite involved and invested sentient being (me!) taking all this in just inches away. And a sentient being at the ready to make eye contact and smile (sincerely, not fakily) at them in passing, at the very least, and if they allowed, to ask them, quite seriously, what specifically was behind that "Yikes!"

I did want to know, I did want to listen, but if people don't give you an opening...But any of these responses sure beat the bad old unreality-based ad hominem rant.

However, something quite troubling did happen to Rachel, after I had taken my leave of the conference and its nonproletarian-priced celebrity fundraising events on my customary posh, high-roller mode of transit, the Greyhound bus.

Rachel attended a price-included-in-exhbitor-pass bigwig panel discussion on the future of the progressive movement. During the question/comment period, she pointed out the existence of progressive prolifers. She recommended that the progressive movement as a whole work with us to reach people who otherwise might not give progressive values and politics any serious hearing.

Now, Rachel says she wasn't going on any longer, and probably was going on shorter, than others who lined up behind the questioners' mikes. I did attend previous panel discussions, and there sure were a lot of talkative folks with strong opinions who leapt up behind those mikes the instant they were switched on.

But the bigwigs on the panel grumbled that they could see where Rachel was going with this (they could? how did they know before she went there?) There amidst the advocates of free speeach, she was summarily cut off. "Free speech for me but not for thee..."

Then the panel bigwigs unleashed a number of statements Rachel had no chance to publicly respond to. One panel member, for example, criticized the Pope's statements about condoms in Africa--as if "prolife" meant you automatically bowed in obedience to those words, of course.

And no one openly challenged the censorship dynamic here. Indeed, there was apparently a lot of applause for it.

Rachel tells me what else she would have said if her mike had not been cut off:

"I would have responded by re-iterating and bringing [the panelists] back to the point I was actually making about outreach, rather than responding to non-sequiturs. There were several bizarre points made that I could have taken issue with, had I had all afternoon, but I would have kept on track because the session was about the future of the progressive movement and I was keeping on track even if they weren't."

(Now me, I would've explained how those "bizarre points" were nonsequiturs, *then* returned to the matter of outreach. But that's me.)

On the other hand, some women in the audience approached Rachel afterwards and shared their own reproductive challenges. They quickly grasped that hers was not prolife-as-expected, and they all ended up hugging each other.

But why were complex, nuanced, empathetic, very human, small-scale interactions like these--the kinds of exchanges we had both experienced elsewhere in the conference--not reflected in the overt, bigwig-marshalled, publicly unchallenged group dynamics that cut off Rachel's mike?

Like Rachel would tell you if she had half a chance--that question matters to the future of the progressive movement, to the hundred more years we wish the dear old Progressive Magazine.


. . . . .
75 comments

Excellent info about the Progressive pro life movement. Thanks!

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on May 5, 2009 - 11:25pm.

Pro-choicers and progressives would gladly approach you if you made clear that you do not favor criminalizing abortion, nor stigmatizing the choice or legitimacy of having one. However, previous discussions on this site have shown you to take the view that all abortions can be prevented by providing enough support or resources to the woman. There is no room in your world for a woman who wants an abortion, regardless of how much you can do for her. (I know that you don't favor making abortion illegal, but getting you to actually say as much was like pulling teeth. You kept dancing around the point until you were pinned down on it.)

There is room for collaboration on providing contraception, aid to pregnant women, etc., of course, but if the core of your advocacy does not include a strong respect for the choices and autonomy of women, even when the choice is not the one you hope for, then your agenda is ultimately about control and will be an awkward fit in the progressive movement in general. Not to say that we wouldn't prefer progressive pro-lifers to the alternative, but styling yourselves as misunderstood Good Guys(tm) is dishonest and self-serving.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 6, 2009 - 12:41am.

 "styling yourselves as misunderstood Good Guys(tm) is dishonest and self-serving." That is not dishonesty, that is how progressive prolifers see ourselves, just as you pro choicers often "cry me a river" and claim to be the misunderstood good guys because that's how you see yourselves. You seem to feel that Marysia is being dishonest and self serving because she doesn't see her own position the way you do. 

 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on May 6, 2009 - 10:19am.

When people advocate--especially when they try to advocate in a complex, nuanced, non-blaming way--for social justice measures that challenge existing power structures...they often encounter misunderstanding, hostility, and censorship. 

 

it goes with the territory. that doesn't make others' less than optimal treatment right or justifiable, but it does happen.  a lot. If i cried rivers over it, I'd get rapidly dehydrated and need some IVs on a regular basis!

 

 This sort of negative response happens to activists from a wide variety of movements, not only progressive prolifers.  I'm not trademarking any "Good Guys"--for one, most of the progressive prolifers I know are women, not guys! 

 

And when activists of any stripe feel they are encountering this sort of response, they have every right to point out what is happening. 

 

In US culture, the quickest way to discredit someone who complains about something unfair is to mark them as a crybaby. 

 

As if one were supposed to "suck it up and take it" or "take your lumps your evil self is due"--presuming, of course, that anything problematic really did happen anywhere other than in the dratted crybaby's over heated, self serving, dishonest imagination...

 

I decline to accept your use of this tactic against the story I have told.

 

Why should I have any less right to identify and object to dismissive and undermining responses than, say, a prochoicer who encountered this sort of thing from prolifers? 

 

because I'm one of "Those People" and ding dong, QED, I'm "Wrong"?  so therefore I can't say a word about it?  Is it OK to say something only if someone is in the "Right" in your eyes? 

 

It's not dishonest or self-serving to talk about this when it happens.  This stuff happened at the conference, and over the decades I've seen a lot worse that also bears telling.

 

Sometimes it makes some prochoicers uncomfortable to hear about this stuff from the "enemy" vantage point.  Because it's supposed to be "antichoicers" who are all closeminded, hostile, censoring.  But no movement has a monopoly on those unfortunate traits.  Alas, they are everywhere under the sun...

 

I never said that *all* abortions can be prevented through providing resources.  Even in a situation of optimal, ideal medical care, for example, a few pregnancies will endanger women's lives. 

 

But so many of the problems put on pregnant woman and their babies are social constructions contrived and imposed through human agency, and human agency can and should dismantle them. 

 

People in the US especially haven't bothered very much to do that.  We have the resources to make a very different world, but because women and children, born and unborn, are not really valued, we don't bother.

 

OK, if I don't think legality/illegality is the deepest, most decisive question concerning abortion, but alleviating its root causes--and so I don't devote my energies to expounding or acting on the matter of the law--how is that hiding anything or dancing around or being dishonest because I'm coming from a somewhat different place than the debate-as usual? 

 

Just because you want to see me that way, as an evader or deceiver?

 

 Am I supposed to be fitted into the terms that others immediately recognize?  or is my job and contribution in this whole mess of the abortion debate to be what I have to offer, regardless of whether that means I can be readily slotted into pre-existing categories or not?

 

 I *do* have a strong respect for women's autonomy and choices.  Why else would I advocate strongly for nonabortion choices and be so concerned about all the situational pressures upon women to have abortions?  The vast, vast majority of women in this world have abortions in situations of *disempowerment.* 

But does our right to choose--assuming some women are ever in situations where they can fully and freely exercise that, which in the global picture now is rare to nonexistent-- include the right to take the life of an unconsenting other?  Does any human have that right over another? If you are concerned about control, isn't that's a question to ask and be concerned about, too?

What you are saying sound likes: I don't want to work with you unless you become just like me on abortion. 

But common ground or coalition building is about working with people on things you all deem necessary, whatever your genuine and conscientiously held differences.

 It's not--my way or the highway.  In human history, that's never been known to get anything done.

Hoping that someday we will understand one another, even when and where we do not agree....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 6, 2009 - 6:02pm.

or take dismissing the human life actually does exist prior to conception (which truly is a pro-every life stance being all inclusive of all human life, regardless of someones personal belief) as ridiculous like you did in a prior blog in a comment. The anti-contraception crowd has just as much right to claim progressive.

Submitted by AnotherAnonymous on May 6, 2009 - 8:46pm.

You are trying to assert that my stance on prenatal life is absurd by associating it with a viewpoint that scientifically does not hold water. 

Biology does differentiate a great deal between an ovum or a sperm cell and the entity set in motion by their combination. 

The abortion debate is not over this science so much as it is over whether the being set in motion by conception is to be treated as *socially* and not alone in the biological sense as a human life/a full-fledged human life.

 

And that's why is it wholly fair for prochoicers to ask abortion opponents if they hold consistent prolife views on such matters as the death penalty, war, and social service programs.

 

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 10:58am.

Zygote is combined, the prior stage of sperm and ovum is not combined. We get that. A zygote is one cell/no organs a baby is multi-cellular and physical organs.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 12:40pm.

And I didn't say 'absurd', however you did say 'ridiculous' in your response in the prior blog/comment.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 12:42pm.

yes, i did say 'ridiculous' in that context. scientifically speaking, it is ridiculous to equate sperm or ova with an already conceived life form.

however, it is not  scientifically ridiculous to regard the already conceived life form as a continuous individual life, in a sense that the sperm and ovum which went into his/her/its makeup were not. 

the debate is over the social value attributed to that life form.

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 4:13pm.

Nope. I don't believe two separate embryo entities that combine into one to form a single baby are really two people. Or that a single entity that splits into two post-conception is somehow still one individual. You probably have your own reasons around these cases but anyone can call that reasoning ridiculous too.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 4:22pm.

BTW, sperm and egg are continuous into the embryo…it may take a sex act (without an artificial barrier/pill) to put them together but so does development rely on implantation to continue, type of development on neural tube closure, etc. and very importantly it relies on the womans body continous interacting to maintain its life for development to be continuous. A normal, healthy embryo in a Petri dish can continue to “grow” but it will not “develop” along the path to becoming a baby – it will only turmorize.
People have just as much right to draw the line even earlier than you in a pro-every life stance.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 5:44pm.

...as in the anti-contraception crowd. Or later than you.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 8, 2009 - 8:43am.

Marysia, I can't make heads or tails of all this and I don't want to jump to conclusions - are you simply personally pro-life, or do you support making abortion illegal for everyone (or nearly everyone)?

Submitted by N. on May 7, 2009 - 8:34pm.

The thing is, I don't approach the debate in those terms.  My focus is on alleviating the root causes of abortion, which will need to be alleviated whether/to what extent abortion is legal/illegal.  I have decided, personally, to neither work for/against any laws, in order to devote energies to the root causes alone.

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 8, 2009 - 4:46pm.

When people advocate--especially when they try to advocate in a complex, nuanced, non-blaming way--for social justice measures that challenge existing power structures...they often encounter misunderstanding, hostility, and censorship.

Advocating in such a complex way, that you tiptoe around the most basic points of skepticism that pro-choicers have about your position. You say, "Oh, criminalizing abortion is not important for us," but it's very important for folks who have good reason to suspect a wolf in sheep's clothing, after decades of supposedly "pro-woman" efforts by mainstream pro-lifers.

This sort of negative response happens to activists from a wide variety of movements, not only progressive prolifers. I'm not trademarking any "Good Guys"--for one, most of the progressive prolifers I know are women, not guys!

I used "Good Guys" because "Good Girls" has another meaning altogether. Feel free to consider my criticism as a generic "negative response" no different than that received by other activists, as opposed to a statement specifically built on what you've said in the past. But if you enjoy playing the part of a martyr, then please spare everyone the pretense of complaining about it.

Why should I have any less right to identify and object to dismissive and undermining responses than, say, a prochoicer who encountered this sort of thing from prolifers?

Because you're engaging in sophistry, Marysia. You're saying, "Hey everyone, I may be pro-life, but I believe in addressing abortion via contraception and sex ed and all that good stuff! I'm totally with you guys!" when your advocacy is built on a premise that negates the whole principle of respect for a woman's agency.

because I'm one of "Those People" and ding dong, QED, I'm "Wrong"? so therefore I can't say a word about it? Is it OK to say something only if someone is in the "Right" in your eyes?

No, it's perfectly fine for you to advocate your position, and collaborate with pro-choicers on the points held in common. What's wrong, however---the point where you, in effect, become the crybaby---is in wanting to be fully embraced as a "Progressive." You're certainly progressive for a pro-lifer, I'll give you that. But you still have some pretty regressive ideas at the heart of your advocacy, and people are going to rightfully object if you try to claim otherwise.

I never said that *all* abortions can be prevented through providing resources. Even in a situation of optimal, ideal medical care, for example, a few pregnancies will endanger women's lives.

I don't mean abortions that are medically necessary. I mean, abortions where the woman could have had a perfectly healthy child, with no adverse effect to her, and yet she doesn't want to go through with that. Where you could give her a million dollars, a long-term nanny, and a luxury house in the Hamptons, and she still says no. If you cannot respect that decision on her part, then for all the collaboration that you could do with pro-choicers, there is still going to be this philosophical chasm in between.

But so many of the problems put on pregnant woman and their babies are social constructions contrived and imposed through human agency, and human agency can and should dismantle them.

Sure, and that's all fine and good. Where you go wrong is in thinking that the ultimate result of such dismantling is an elective abortion rate of zero.

OK, if I don't think legality/illegality is the deepest, most decisive question concerning abortion, but alleviating its root causes--and so I don't devote my energies to expounding or acting on the matter of the law--how is that hiding anything or dancing around or being dishonest because I'm coming from a somewhat different place than the debate-as usual?

The hiding occurs when someone asks you about this very point, and you don't give a clear answer. What's wrong with saying, "No, I don't believe elective abortion should be criminalized, nor do I advocate for that?" Why do you have such a problem with just coming out and saying that?

Am I supposed to be fitted into the terms that others immediately recognize? or is my job and contribution in this whole mess of the abortion debate to be what I have to offer, regardless of whether that means I can be readily slotted into pre-existing categories or not?

Blame your non-progressive colleagues, then, because they've tried a whole number of different tacks on the anti-choice advocacy. If you're not going to do the basic diligence of putting people's misgivings to rest, then they have very good reason to be skeptical of your angle.

I *do* have a strong respect for women's autonomy and choices. Why else would I advocate strongly for nonabortion choices and be so concerned about all the situational pressures upon women to have abortions? The vast, vast majority of women in this world have abortions in situations of *disempowerment.*

You're just making my point for me. You believe that all women considering (elective) abortion think, "I can't have this baby because ...". The woman does not exist in your world who thinks "I don't want to have a baby right now."

But does our right to choose--assuming some women are ever in situations where they can fully and freely exercise that, which in the global picture now is rare to nonexistent-- include the right to take the life of an unconsenting other? Does any human have that right over another? If you are concerned about control, isn't that's a question to ask and be concerned about, too?

And there you have it. The question of whether a fetus is an "other" to which the concept of "consent" is even applicable, is one of the big ones that pro-choicers hold cannot be answered (because the answer depends on one's faith, which is not universal). But you, like regular non-progressive pro-lifers, already have the answer to that question. And that answer informs all your advocacy.

What you are saying sound likes: I don't want to work with you unless you become just like me on abortion. But common ground or coalition building is about working with people on things you all deem necessary, whatever your genuine and conscientiously held differences.

I, and other pro-choicers, would be happy to work with you in a "common-ground" approach. Where I (and others) object, however, is your efforts to ingratiate yourself into a movement with whom you disagree on some pretty fundamental points.

Hoping that someday we will understand one another, even when and where we do not agree....

Oh, I think we understand each other, and on what we agree and disagree. I just hope you'll find that truth in advertising is a good thing, and that you're willing to take the lumps for the points on which you disagree with the pro-choice movement.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 6, 2009 - 10:15pm.

I disagree that we have achieved that level of understanding.  For one, you seem to assume that my stance on abortion is based on sectarian faith, when it decidedly isn't.

We have a ways to go here...

I have not lied about anything I think or do.  Please do not mistake complexity or nuance for deception and evasion.

I should not have to "take lumps" for things I do not advocate.  As for "taking lumps" for those things I do advocate--that is tantamount to saying I "ask for" any disrespectful treatment I get, that I've basically "got it coming" to me...

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 11:10am.

did she really come out against making 'abortion illegal'? or just against 'criminalizing women'? I read and understood only the latter. The former will still make it inaccessible to many women who really want it based upon their own needs/desires/beliefs about fetal development and whether their body should be used to maintain life (not to be confused always with societal pressures to abort as women do think for themselves too). Criminalizing abortion, without criminalizing women, can make it inaccessible to many of these women regardless of whether they themselves will face jail time.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 6, 2009 - 9:22pm.

did she really come out against making 'abortion illegal'? or just against 'criminalizing women'? I read and understood only the latter.

I thought she just didn't really care one way or the other, but that's only what I recall offhand. You could be right---she twisted and equivocated so much on this point that I could have misread her.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 6, 2009 - 10:19pm.

Her answer is in her diary entry with fifty-some replies (I'd post a link to the specific comment but I don't think I can--it's on the first page, though). It pretty much boils down to not working for or against abortion legally, just, as best I can gather, trying to make abortion unthinkable (1. money, 2. education, 3. ?, 4. PROFIT, er, no abortions?).

Submitted by graylor on May 6, 2009 - 10:42pm.

You know, you all don't need to talk about me in the third person, as if I weren't here, in the space of my own diary, too....

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 11:12am.

Its third person only because I was replying to the first Anonymous' comment which yes, happened to regard their summary of prior conversations with you...but I was replying to the content as I thought I read it summarized in Anonymous' comment itself .

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 11:30am.

I was replying to the first anonymous and attempting to summarize your comment (if somewhat snarkily). Imagine, people discussing your ideas among each other. Most bloggers would approve.


As this comment *is* to you, however, let me thank you. My short stories are enhanced by your philosophy and its logical repercussions.

Submitted by graylor on May 7, 2009 - 2:44pm.

It's not the discussion of ideas i object to.  not in the least.  you apparently do not understand how pro free speech and anti censorship i am.  so kindly please do not interpret my statement as a call to censor disagreement and discussion. 

it's something else entirely i object to--it's the talking about me like i'm not here, an equal part of the conversation. 

 this tactic is sometimes what people do,consciously or unconsciously, to distance themselves from others they regard as "less than." 

 

now i have no idea what you are writing about in your short stories.  but if you interpret my request for the same respect others would want for themselves as an attempt to squelch discussion and censor disagreement and bring on fascistic dystopia...i think it's fair to say, you misinterpret.

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 4:23pm.

....distance ourselves from someone we regard as "less than"? I know you are here, you wrote the blog and have been active commenting. I never assumed you wouldn't see the comment or have a chance to comment. BTW, I was also previously exchanged posts with you on the Pro-Voice blog where you didn't want to respond to questioning you so specific about your stance on abortion being illegal...and again my comment above was responding only to the summary in the first Anonymous comment .

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 4:41pm.

ok, i'm sorry if this does not apply...it's just that all too many times, i have had people use this put-one-in-the-third-person thing as a form of intentional disrespect.

so, apologies if this was not the case.

i

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 5:27pm.

I have no idea how you think such comments should be phrased, then. I would certainly think an unwritten "Marysia, do you agree/etc?" would be invoked by simple virtue of this being your diary. It seems fairly normal for blogs, especially those that generate a lot of comments.


And, no, it's not your "my request for the same respect others would want for themselves as an attempt to squelch discussion and censor disagreement and bring on fascistic dystopia" that is such a rich seam of inspiration, just progressive pro-life-ism in general, and, in a broader sense, when good intentions run smack into the brick wall of reality.

Submitted by graylor on May 7, 2009 - 4:50pm.

Imagine, people discussing your ideas among each other. Most bloggers would approve.

Bingo. Its fairly common practice for commenter's to weigh in on summaries of the authors viewpoint that had been posted by other commenters...e.g. 'Did Amanda really say that...or did she say this other thing'

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 4:54pm.

but this is the crux of the issue.

 

Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. It is *pro-choice.* It is a philosophy that recognizes that not everyone has the same moral or philosophical construct as you do for a fertilized egg, blastocyst, pregnancy that is 5 or 7 or 12 weeks along.  It recognizes the diversity of moral, religious, ethical and personal opinion.

 

You claim that: I never said that *all* abortions can be prevented through providing resources. Even in a situation of optimal, ideal medical care, for example, a few pregnancies will endanger women's lives. But so many of the problems put on pregnant woman and their babies are social constructions contrived and imposed through human agency, and human agency can and should dismantle them.

But this is by definition an agenda in which you impose your standards on and restrict the choices of others. And also, it does not recognize that with all the social supports in the world some women, many women, millions of women simply do not want (a) or another child. It is not for you to decide for them. This is why in effect it is not a progressive position, because it denies the rights of people in a morally contested space to exercise their own religious and moral beliefs, not be imprisoned by yours.

 

Thanks, Jodi

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Senior Political Editor on May 6, 2009 - 9:14pm.

I agree with Jodi here. I am one of those women who, no matter how much money, social support, nannies, etc., would still abort if I got pregnant. I simply do not want, ever, another child. I have two and I'm done. I'm OCD about birth control and always very careful. But shit does happen and I'm one of those hyper-fertile women that you hear about and getting pregnant by 'accident' is always a possibility. And there is nothing, nothing, that could ever convince me to have another child.

And if you can't respect that choice on my part and think that just waving it all away with 'social support' will make me change it, then you aren't respecting me as a woman *or* as a mother. And thus you can't *really* call yourself progressive.

And on a side note that really isn't relevant to the main topic of the post--I live in Marcy Kaptur's district and I generally really like her and think she is a fine representative. I've met her (she goes to the same church as some good friends of mine and we talked at their kids' first communion) and she seems really nice in person too. However, I have never voted for her in a primary and only vote for her in general elections as a lesser of two evils (because I would never vote for a Republican, ever--Democrat is as conservative as I'll go) precisely because she isn't pro-choice.

Submitted by ks on May 7, 2009 - 10:56am.

I have to agree with ks, Jodi and colleen here. There are times in my life where if I did get pregnant, my choice would be abortion. It has nothing to do with giving me economic support or other support. I can think for myself instead of caving in to societal pressures from either direction.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 11:47am.

ks,

i don't think all women "should" have kids, let alone as many kids as possible.  i stopped at one child myself, purposefully.  i do empathize with not wanting to have another child, ever.  i have been in that situation and like you have been obsessive compulsive about contraception--while knowing all too well that it still might not work as intended.

 

now i don't want to make any assumptions about your own personal motives here.  but i would like to raise larger questions, at the collective level:

 

why are we a kind of society in which women are left to struggle with such imperfect methods of contraception? 

 

why don't we as a whole have the respect for women and women's fears and desires to make existent methods as close to foolproof as possible?

 

why is that our culture exalts penis-vagina sex--the only kind that can possibly result in conception--above all others? why are the rest looked upon as "foreplay" or "side dishes"?  When there are so many possible forms of sexual pleasure between consenting adults that have absolutely no associated risk of pregnancy--as LGBT people so often know more than heterosexuals do?

and what is it about our culture that makes taking a prenatal life appear to so many better/less bad than having others raise the child? 

  

 if we dealt collectively with this issues, i do believe that the contexts of women's individual decisions will be radically, radically altered--in favor of both women's and unborn children's lives. 

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 12:01pm.

Some women aren't huge into foreplay and not accepting of it without intercourse. I'm one of them. I don't care if you call it the side dish or main course. I'll exalt it however I please....in my sex life I'll determine what goes/doesn't go.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 12:18pm.

Sure, there are other ways to be sexual besides just PIV sex, and I enjoy that stuff in and of itself. But I also very much enjoy PIV sex and I don't think I should have to give it up. That is why I use birth control and that is why I'll save abortion for a back up method if the birth control fails. And sure, better birth control would be nice (I'm actually thinking of sterilization, but I don't want to have surgery if I don't have to), but even then, nothing is 100%. Except my desire to not have any more children.

And letting someone else raise a child I gave birth to is also not an option, as I don't think I could give up a child of mine. I know people who have and every single one of them wishes they had not--I think it's a much more painful experience than we as a society let on to. And besides, I don't want to ever be pregnant again anyway. I hated every single second of being pregnant, and I did it twice on purpose. If I were forced (or coerced or guilted or shamed into) to carry another pregnancy to term, I know that I couldn't bring myself to give it up, but I would also resent that child for being born when I didn't want it. That wouldn't be fair to me or to the child or to my other two children--better that it never be born at all.

So yeah, with better societal support, etc., some women would make different choices and continue pregnancies to term and have children and either raise the kids themselves or let someone else (although I think that if there were more societal support for working/young/single/whatever mothers, there would be way, way less children put up for adoption), but there will always, always be women like me who just will not.

Submitted by ks on May 7, 2009 - 2:07pm.

Jodi,

I never equated pro choice with "pro abortion."  In fact, when I hear prolifers talk about "pro aborts," I challenge them on this and explain that, yes, really, prochoicers see their position as one of many choices, not only abortion... 

if I didn't recognize and respect the fact that prochoicers mean it when they say "prochoice, not proabortion" about sexual/reproductive options--then there really wouldn't be any prospect of common ground, would there?

 Now, here is a point on which we do disagree...

People hold a range of views on whether this sort of biologically human form of life or that one also counts socially as human.  

But the simple fact that there is a range of views  does not in and of itself determine whether the biological life form under dispute should be treated as socially human across the board, or treated variably according to that range of views.

After all, people have a range of views about, for example, immigrants, people on death row, women, LGBT people, people of color...

But when someone defends immigrants or death row prisoners or just about any other kind of biologically human life form but a prenatal one--it is seldom regarded as enough to counterargue "there is a range of views about the status of this kind of being."

So, there are other considerations involved here...And anyway, I don't think questions of life and death and who counts as socially human are not the same as genuinely sectarian questions like, what kind of daily prayers or ritual, or what/who is the Divine if there is any such thing...

 

I hope this makes some kind of sense....

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 11:33am.

Marysia said: "But so many of the problems put on pregnant woman and their babies are social constructions contrived and imposed through human agency, and human agency can and should dismantle them."

You replied: "But this is by definition an agenda in which you impose your standards on and restrict the choices of others."

How? How is taking unjust social burdens off of pregnant and parenting women an agenda in which we impose our standards on and restrict the choices of others? Restrict whose choices? Those who would abandon their pregnant partners or children? Those who would keep us from having universal health care? Those who have spent the last thirty years dismantling the social safety net? Those who don't want to accomodate the needs of parenting women in the workplace and schools? Since when do feminists stand up for their choices?

Submitted by Jen R on May 7, 2009 - 1:49pm.

I think she's heard from those who would fall into the 'restrict whose choices?' category, people who have been commenting here and on one of the prior blogs and saying they would not carry a pregnancy to term regardless of these other efforts to improve conditions (and also support improving these other conditions for other women and also for other reasons). Deciding to have an abortion can happen even if there is a supportive partner, health care, etc.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 3:08pm.

I understand that there are some women who just don't want to bear children, even under the best conditions in the world. As does Marysia, I'd add, having known her for years.



But Jodi was replying to the part of Marysia's comment about removing the burdens on women, and saying *that* was restricting people's choices.

Submitted by Jen R on May 7, 2009 - 3:20pm.
Marysia said in effect that if the so-called social restrictions were removed, abortion would only be necessary in cases where women's lives were in danger. I just don't believe this, and I do believe there is a very very fine line between "offering" social supports (why not to all pregnant women and those struggling to care for the families they have?) and coercion of women. The point is that those who wish to bring a pregnancy to term should be supported in doing so, but no one should be coerced to bring a pregnancy to term. In real life, I just don't think the distinctions are made very clearly. Jodi
Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Senior Political Editor on May 7, 2009 - 3:44pm.

Jodi: "I just don't believe this, and I do believe there is a very very fine line between "offering" social supports (why not to all pregnant women and those struggling to care for the families they have?) and coercion of women."

This seems pretty non sequitur given that I was talking about things such as health care, accomodating the needs of parents in the workplace, etc.

Submitted by Jen R on May 7, 2009 - 7:00pm.

It's impossible to work towards a world where women are forced to gestate and give birth to children they do not want and call yourselves progressive. The 'pro-life' position, because it dehumanizes women, is intrinsically authoritarian, dehumanizing and fundamentally flawed.
The problem isn't that you are misunderstood, we understand quite well. The problem is a deep, fundamental difference in basic values. You believe it's possible to force, cajole, manipulate and shame women into adopting the notion that a fertilized ova or a 10 week old fetus is a 'person' and that said 'person' is every woman's raison d'être but most of us strongly disagree on both counts.

Submitted by colleen on May 7, 2009 - 11:03am.

Is abortion a litmus test for whether one counts as progressive or not? 

 

Or is it not possible to derive from progressive values a range of views on abortion--some prolife, some prochoice? 

 

Is this not a matter on which reasonable and compassionate people can possibly have disagreements?

 

Prochoicers are right on the money to ask professed prolifers: "Are you pro life on death row? Are you pro the lives of women and children who are threatened by social program cuts? Are you pro the lives of human beings threatened by war?" Etc, etc, etc, etc...

 

But why is that when prolifers are prolifers who *can* answer, and honestly, "Yes, of course, yes, of course, yes, of course" to all those fair inquiries and more: suddenly those answers don't seem to count for much of anything?

 

Now, if you feel that you, as a prochoicer, have been misunderstood by a prolifer: you are the arbiter of whether or not you have been understood, are you not? 

 

It's a good principle in human interactions, and of nonviolent communication--when someone protests they have not been understood, to find out--from *them,* the source, directly...

...why they feel that way, and to try to understand them better, as *they* understand themselves, on their own terms, not simply as *you* understand them on *your* terms. 

Even if you disagree with them, and remain in disagreement with them.

Does this principle suddenly not apply when prolifers claim that prochoicers have not understood them?

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 12:23pm.
in the public realm, in terms of policy, but not in the private realm. You can be against abortion (the term pro life also is misleading as I am pro-life for all extant people....e.g. all the kids not fed, not clothed, left out of the system, without health care, all the adults, etc). I fully respect and understand the personal position. I do not understand or respect it as public advocacy and do not include this in a progressive frame because it removes the inherent human rights of one person, and their right to exercise their own beliefs on their terms not on yours. this is the distinction i would draw. jodi
Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Senior Political Editor on May 7, 2009 - 1:03pm.

Jodi,

i agree.

i think when it comes down to it, this is the essential point of difference between prolife and prochoice on abortion.

so, it appears...prochoicers generally believe the status of the fetus is a matter of inidividual judgment, because fetuses are unlike other biologically human life forms due to their dependency for life on women, and therefore have a different social standing than already-born people. 

 prolifers generally believe that just like other biological humans, fetuses have certain rights or social claims in a political sense even though they are dependent for survival on women...some who identify as prolife think women as well share in universal human rights and social claims, and some decidedly do not...i'm in the former not the latter camp...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 5:41pm.

she also mentioned different moral and philosophical constructs for the fertilized egg.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 5:53pm.

didn't finish the sentence here...not just for the fertilized egg but also pregnancy that is 5 or 7 or 12 weeks along...which includes mention of different moral and philosophical constructs for the fetus too. Its not just a dependency issue.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 9:12pm.

Very good, Marysia. Now answer this: why should our government enforce your beliefs through the rule of law, and ignore my beliefs altogether? What makes you so right, and me so wrong, to the extent that if I do something counter to your beliefs -- have an abortion -- I should be put in jail? [Surely if a fetus is a person, and abortion means killing a person, the killer should go to jail]. Do you really believe the government should take sides between us, and if so, why should the government side with you?

Submitted by Nina Miller on May 7, 2009 - 8:58pm.

Good ness, who said anything about putting people in jail?!

This is not a retributive-justice kind of issue!

 

What makes me so right, and you so wrong?

Sheesh...  I really don't even think in those terms...but in terms of "What actions are constructive or destructive to individuals and to the social fabric?  What can be done to help promote constructive practices and alleviate destructive ones?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 8, 2009 - 4:53pm.

 

<blockquote>Is abortion a litmus test for whether one counts as progressive or not? 
</blockquote>

I don't know. I do know it's a litmus test for me and millions of other politically aware women. 

<blockquote> Or is it not possible to derive from progressive values a range of views on abortion--some prolife, some prochoice? </blockquote>  

I’ve no interest in furthering the careers or ideas of people who work towards a world where other women are forced to carry to term  children they do not want just as I’ve no interest in voting for politicians or shutting up about churches who/that  hold such authoritarian and harmful attitudes. If it turns out that forcing women to carry to term children they do not want is a position held by ‘progressives’ then I will be pointing out just how oxymoronic  self styled ‘progressives’ are.


I would also like to add that you don’t present yourself as someone who is opposed to the DP or poverty or torture or war, you present yourself as ‘pro-life’ and are posting on a blog devoted to reproductive issues.  Indeed you even presented yourself as ‘pro-life’ at the convention you attended.

<blockquote> Is this not a matter on which reasonable and compassionate people can possibly have disagreements? </blockquote>


Denying women their bodily sovereignty, freedom of conscience and personal autonomy aren’t minor disagreements. We have huge, fundamental differences and it seems to me that one chooses one’s political descriptions based on values and ideas.  I believe, no, I KNOW, that if folks who work towards a world where women are forced to carry to term children they do not want prevail the results will  be neither compassionate or reasonable.  It’s already something of a problem.

 
 <blockquote> Prochoicers are right on the money to ask professed prolifers: "Are you pro life on death row? Are you pro the lives of women and children who are threatened by social program cuts? Are you pro the lives of human beings threatened by war." Etc, etc, etc, etc... </blockquote>

 Thanks for the permission but it really wasn’t something I needed.  

<blockquote>But why is that when prolifers are prolifers who *can* answer, and honestly, "Yes, of course, yes, of course, yes, of course" to all those fair inquiries and more: suddenly those answers don't seem to count for much of anything? </blockquote>

Because you work towards a world where women are forced to carry to term children they do not want and you’re doing so on a blog devoted to reproductive issues..

 

Submitted by colleen on May 7, 2009 - 2:40pm.

--I would also like to add that you don’t present yourself as someone who is opposed to the DP or poverty or torture or war, you present yourself as ‘pro-life’ and are posting on a blog devoted to reproductive issues.  Indeed you even presented yourself as ‘pro-life’ at the convention you attended.--

 

OK, the organization I tabled for takes stands not simply on abortion, but against/for positive alternatives to/ the death penalty, racism, poverty, war, and violations of disability rights.  These are all stands I have advocated and worked for, for a long time, as well as pro environmental and animal concerns and pro feminism, including the reproductive rights of comprehensive sex ed, LGBT rights, family planning, HIV/Aids prevention and treatment, maternal child health and social welfare programs...

how many letters do i have to write (and i do write then, all the time, because i have no money to give but i can give my one voice) to public officials, pleading for the lives of prisoners on death row, or against waterboarding, or for expansion of unfpa and title x family planning funds, or for same sex marriage equality, or for stricter mercury pollution standards and curbs on greenhouse gases, or for paid leave, living wage, and universal health insurance, before anyone will believe that i am genuinely a progressive?

i am seeking to reclaim the term "prolife" so that instead of mere opposition to abortion, or the conservative values so often encoded by the term, rightly or not, it means pro *every* life, already born as well as unborn.

i do recognize that in terms of already born lives, some prochoicers do a lot better in effect at that than some who identify as prolife!

i just wish more prochoicers would recognize that some of us who identify as prolife share that concern for already born lives--including and especially the lives of women--to a much, much greater extent than we are customarily given credit for.

 

 --Denying women their bodily sovereignty, freedom of conscience and personal autonomy aren’t minor disagreements. We have huge, fundamental differences and it seems to me that one chooses one’s political descriptions based on values and ideas.  I believe, no, I KNOW, that if folks who work towards a world where women are forced to carry to term children they do not want prevail the results will  be neither compassionate or reasonable.  It’s already something of a problem. --

ok, i do understand, i think, that that's how 'prolife" appears from prochoice eyes.  it must appear pretty ugly.

but please try to see where i'm coming from on this--imagine for a moment--if everyone is an equal life, including women, including prenatal life forms, then doesn't that change the whole picture?

 

 

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on May 7, 2009 - 4:47pm.

but please try to see where i'm coming from on this--imagine for a moment--if everyone is an equal life, including women, including prenatal life forms, then doesn't that change the whole picture?

Imagine for a moment if there really is a God, and He is exactly as the Catholic faith holds Him to be (and so all other faiths are false). Doesn't that change the whole picture?

Answer to both questions: Yes. Yes it would. Unfortunately, the question is one that cannot be objectively answered---it can only be answered through faith, and faith is an personal, individual choice. The question of whether a human fetus has the same value as an adult is like the question of whether there is a God or not. You say yes, I say no, he doesn't know for sure, she doesn't care. It's not a matter of being right or wrong, because no one will ever be able to prove their position to the satisfaction of others. It's a matter of allowing people to consider such questions on their own, and come to their own conclusions, and have others respect those conclusions (and the process by which they were reached) even if said others do not agree with them.

And no, calling upon historical instances of blacks/slaves being treated as non-humans and such doesn't fly here. You claim that a zygote---a newly fertilized egg---has the same fundamental, inherent value as a fully-grown human. Good luck trying to advance the notion that society simply hasn't "progressed" enough to embrace this view. (It'll probably happen around the time that PETA decides that microorganisms are deserving of their protection.)

Submitted by Anonymous on May 7, 2009 - 5:43pm.