How to Stop the Abortion War Killings

By Mary Krane Derr

September 30, 2009 - 6:00am

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On May 31, 2009, abortion provider Dr. George Tiller was shot in cold blood inside his Wichita, Kansas church.  The suspect, Scott Roeder, reportedly cites his antiabortion views as a motive. On September 11, 2009, Jim Pouillon was shot in cold blood in front of Owosso, Michigan High School while engaged in an antiabortion protest. The suspect, Harlan Drake, reportedly stated an objection to Pouillon’s use of aborted fetus photos in his protests outside the school.

Drake also allegedly killed Mike Fuoss, a gravel pit owner, who upset Drake for undisclosed reasons.  Last week, Tonya Johnson, an Arlington, Tennessee schoolteacher in her eighth month of pregnancy, was shot to death with her baby.  The suspect is her boyfriend, Terence Nelson, who reportedly was enraged at her refusal to have an abortion.

Pro-lifers and pro-choicers in the U.S. are bickering over whose side has the most martyrs and whose has the most blood on its hands.  This is disrespectful towards the dead. It is also unfortunate and unnecessary and could even set the stage for further homicides. Unfortunately we cannot join together in raising the dead. Yet there are many other and better responses that both "sides" can together have to abortion war killings.

We can listen more respectfully and profoundly to one another and our self-definitions. In response to Pouillon’s murder, or that of Tonya Johnson, many pro-choicers feel a deep, visceral sense that this action is dissonant with their movement and their values.  This is exactly how peaceful abortion opponents —the vast majority— feel about the killings of abortion providers.  No one wants to be blamed for or associated with actions they deem antithetical to their most cherished values. And if neither “side” is about killing those who disagree, what, then, are pro-lifers and pro-choicers each about, as they themselves see it? 

Pro-lifers say they are about respecting life, which can and often does encompass respect for women’s right to make non-abortion choices. Pro-choicers say they are about fostering sexual/reproductive choice, which to their view is crucial to respect for life, especially women’s lives. In other words: there is a lot of overlap possible here.  If we approach one another not only without weaponry, but with active, outspoken disavowal of weaponry, we are all the more readily to discover and build upon those areas of overlap.

We can-- and must!--cooperate in the prevention of further homicides. Living as I do in an urban neighborhood with rampant gun violence, I cannot help but relate all the abortion war killings over the decades to the larger picture of gun violence in the U.S., to the thousands of deaths and injuries annually. Bringing up gun control in the context of abortion may have the sound of pouring gasoline onto an already raging fire. I do acknowledge that this is tricky. There are many pro-choice liberals who support gun control and pro-life conservatives who oppose it. There are also pro-choicers who invoke gun rights out of respect for personal choice, and pro-lifers like me who support gun control out of respect for life. 

But no matter how tricky it may be, if we all agree that killing one another is not the way to address our disagreements, we must therefore assume the responsibility to prevent further killings.  Even if we are not personally responsible for the homicides themselves in any way! That means personally committing to alleviate the reality of gun violence, or, as some would have it, the reality of people who abuse their Second Amendment freedoms.

Now, I passionately advocate gun control and my vision of reverence for life goes beyond humans, born and unborn, to eco advocacy, vegetarianism, and a general opposition to hunting and fishing.  But no doubt, along with like-minded pro-lifers, and pro-choice gun control advocates,  there are also avid hunters, fishers, and gun bearers, both pro-life and pro-choice, who ask the same question as I do: How did people like suspects Scott Roeder, Harlan Drake, and Terence Nelson get their hands on guns? How is it that their plans for violence were not thwarted in time?

Even those of us who are sickened beyond measure at even the thought of wounding or killing must deal with such questions.

We can find reciprocally acceptable ways to disagree with one another. Not killing one another is the most basic and necessary form of nonviolence between pro-choice and pro-life. But the practice of nonviolence towards one another hardly stops there. Nonviolence needs also to be present in our speech towards one another. Without treading on one another’s freedoms of speech and association, pro-lifers and pro-choicers need to work out a better understanding of how to express our disagreements. 

How to begin or continue in that process?  Pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike have had quite parallel reactions to Jim Pouillon’s killing: a combination of horror over his murder and profound objection to his particular means of protesting abortion. No doubt to the immense relief of pro-choicers, I am one of many pro-lifers who object to the indiscriminate brandishing of giant, bloody fetus photos in the public space. Yes, disturbing images are a valid part of many political causes, including the peace movement, and eco advocacy/animal rights. Pro-choicers themselves sometimes resort to coat hanger imagery to convey the urgency of their cause. 

I am not advocating legal censorship by any means, but I personally think it is better, in general, for activists to offer people a choice about whether, when, and where to view such images.  Fear and disgust are not the only or even the most positive ways to appeal to people's hearts and minds anyway, especially in a culture that is so deeply polarized and already saturated to the point of desensitization with graphic images.

Even as I am sickened by Pouillon's murder, even as I oppose abortion, and even as I understand the desperation and despair of some protestors who feel that no one really cares enough about a matter of life and death...I would recommend something different for people who wish to protest abortion in any sign-holding kind of way—by no means the only way to take real action. They can stand quietly under placards that non-judgmentally offer substantive help with preventing and going through with difficult pregnancies.  And they must be fully prepared to give such help at every level from the individual to the global—whether they pass out condoms;  offer to personally pay a woman's back rent or offer her an open adoption of her child;  give referrals to sound programs, including ethically run pro-life pregnancy centers, that aid with basic needs like food, clothing, shelter, and health care; gather signatures in support of prenatal care coverage, birth mother’s rights, or UNFPA funding; and/or do something else. I know many pro-lifers who commit such deeds constantly, but behind the scenes. Pro-choicers who truly believe in choice also are deeply engaged in creating and offering the other choices.

Since the shooting, Pouillon's son James M. Puillon has come forward and stated that the murdered protestor was not motivated by concern for the unborn, but by hostility and violence towards women, including his late ex-wife. If this characterization is indeed true, it raises another, connected issue around bringing anti-abortion beliefs into the public sphere.

Pro-life and pro-choice do have valid disagreements over the exact parameters of universal human rights in regard to abortion. But even as we apply a universal human rights approach differently, we can agree that hatred of women has no place on either; whether the misogyny hides behind an allegedly pro-life but woman-blaming “concern” for unborn children, or whether it hypocritically seeks to clothe male coercion and violence in the rhetoric of pro-choice.

When we agree on the importance of women’s rights, we can cooperate on alleviating such unfortunately widespread problems as the heightened rate of domestic violence during pregnancy. We can and must ensure that no more pregnant women and their babies suffer injury and even death, whether the perpetrators have the motive of coerced abortion or another motive. 

We can and must draw on wisdom such as that gathered by the kNOw MORE campaign of the Family Violence Prevention Fund, which documents the links among domestic violence and reproductive health dilemmas like unintended pregnancy, abortion, and unsupported motherhood. The rights and well-being of women from a universal human rights perspective, open to people of all faiths and none, must be central to abortion discourse, or we will go nowhere. 

We may not agree precisely about the nature and status of prenatal lives, or about the roles of abortion in female lives and welfare, but we are disagreeing within a shared and humane framework that highlights commonalities. As a pro-lifer, I am also well aware that if one wishes to help the unborn, then one must attend abundantly and simultaneously to the needs of the already born too, especially women. Pitting the unborn against the born, as if prenatal lives just simply floated around in the air somewhere and then mattered no more after their purportedly invisible, inert mothers birthed them…that does not help a soul.

A universal human rights approach also brings something else quite valuable to common ground. Throughout almost all the world--most thankfully, in my personal, abolitionist view—this framework rejects the death penalty as a solution to societal problems and conflicts, whether it is administered by vigilantes or through legal due process.

I cannot claim to have all the answers.  But I do know that if pro-lifers and pro-choicers get further and further caught up in ad hominem arguments over who is more bloodthirsty, we will harden even further against one another. Meaning that violence becomes more likely to happen again in the name of the abortion war, even if we fervently hope that it does not.


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That was one suberb piece you wrote! You highlighted the many aspects of non-violence that need to be employed in order for advocates on both sides (I don't like to think of them as "sides") to find common ground in building a more just, more peaceful world.

 

I'm at work now so I don't have the opportunity to praise you as much as you deserve, but I would like to underline one very important point that you make: 

 

Nonviolence needs also to be present in our speech towards one another. Without treading on one another’s freedoms of speech and association, pro-lifers and pro-choicers need to work out a better understanding of how to express our disagreements.

 

The seeds of peace have to be present in every single human encounter.  I try, as best as I am able, to maintain a high regard for the lives of people who take a different viewpoint than I do.  I expect to learn from people who disagree with me.  I look to support ways that my "opponents" are working against discrimination and for non-violence.

 

We shouldn't be butting heads against each other.  We should be thanking God (or, if you prefer, Darwin) that the people we're communicating with are intelligent and well-meaning.

 

Keep up the good work!! 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 30, 2009 - 10:12am.

We should be thanking God (or, if you prefer, Darwin)...

Paul Bradford,
Do you know any atheists? I know this is off-topic, but I didn't want to let this pass. Atheists don't worship Darwin and don't need to thank him for anything, except publishing a great scientific work.

Submitted by gravitybear on October 1, 2009 - 2:20pm.

G. Bear,

 

I knew I was going to get a comment like yours when I posted.  Please consider giving me some credit for understanding what atheism is.

 

My comment about 'Darwin' followed the lead of the Darwin Fish project.  I'm sure everyone has seen the bumper stickers.

 

For you, G. Bear, I will amend my statement:

 

We should be thanking God, or the blind forces of natural selection, that there are intelligent people to talk these things over with. (Although some of us still have some evolving to do).

 

Feel better? 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 1, 2009 - 8:48pm.

Why must we be thankful to unseen forces at all?   

And why do you seem to have such a strong need to define atheism as a religion?  By definition, it is simply a lack of belief in deities; nothing more, nothing less. When it comes to any group of people, depending on their specific activities, that group may or may not have qualities to be labeled a religion.   

Consider this:  for every atheist "activist" (the ones you hear the most from), there are several others (the majority actually) who simply don't believe in god.  For this group, their lack of belief takes on no greater a role in their life than that.  This doesn't mean I don't agree that there are some atheist groups exhibiting the characteristics of a religion (the ones I called "activists").  But don't you agree that making such broad, sweeping generalizations about ANY group of peoplel is always a mistake?  

It is my experience that this majority of atheists, the "non-activist" ones, usually remain unheard and unseen.   They don't form groups, don't go to meetings, don't take part in any sort of atheist politics, and don't have any atheist-based agenda.  This majority of atheists simply don't believe in a god. 

Looking at it this way, I just don't see how any logical arguement could be made that atheism as a whole is always a religion.  

 

Submitted by hatmaker510 on October 5, 2009 - 12:26pm.

As a pro-lifer, I actually wanted to attend a vigil for George Tiller. But organizers made it clear that I was not welcome; it was strictly an event to glorify the pro-choice position. This exclusion speaks volumes about the state of our nation's abortion war; the victims serve as political tools. But there can be no solidarity in mourning those who have died unjustly. I find this notion as tragic as the deaths themselves.

What also saddens me is how each side of the abortion debate has an extremist contingent that actually seems to *rejoice* in these deaths as an opportunity to score cheap political points. When Dr. Tiller was murdered, pro-choicers reported with glee that pro-lifers should shut up about their views so that they don't "cause" more of these killings. When Pouillon became a victim, a handful of pro-lifers enjoyed a cheap stab against pro-choicers, claiming, "Ah-ha! You do it to us, too!" Common ground will come only when we both step forward to condemn *all* abortion-related violence, genuinely mourn the deaths of *all* victims, and move forward. But it is unconscionable to turn these victims into human mascots for one's cause.

Submitted by EternalSkeptic on October 11, 2009 - 7:07pm.

Off the top of my head, is it possible they didn't want you at the vigil because as a pro-lifer, they were afraid you might cause trouble? (Not saying you would, just that that might be a concern for them).

Submitted by Jayn on October 12, 2009 - 7:02am.

Deleted due to inadvertend duplication. Sorry.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 25, 2009 - 12:10am.

Deleted due to annoying and odd formatting errors. Sorry.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 25, 2009 - 12:09am.

Couldn't be that "pro-lifers" weren't welcome because it was self-professed "pro-lifers" who have repeatedly stalked, harassed, shot at, and ultimately succeeded in slaughtering Dr. Tiller?! Nah, couldn't be that. It's just further proof that poor-choicers want to glorify themselves and never attempt to find common ground with pro-lifers!


Frankly, I don't care to compromise with people who want to take away women's right to decide what happens to their very own bodies, but that's just me. The only common ground is prevention and expansion of the social safety net, which your side stymies whenever given an opportunity.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 25, 2009 - 12:00am.

EternalSkeptic, that is sad, it speaks volumes about the levels of suspicion & mistrust that exist...
I wish US culture could get beyond this, one reason why I am glad to participate in On Common Ground.

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on October 12, 2009 - 11:18am.

I cannot take seriously someone who claims that a man who kills his pregnant girlfriend because she refused to obtain an abortion is the work of a pro-choicer. Or that Pouillon's murder was also the work of a pro-choicer, disregarding the fact that the murderer was a lunatic who shot two other men against whom he also had personal grudges who had no connection whatsoever to "pro-life" activism and that he was never in contact with nor was ever visited by pro-choice activists, unlike Dr. Tiller's murderer. But, typical of "pro-lifers" I know you won't let the facts stop you from continuing to spout the drivel you've just spewed right here.


I know this will fall on deaf "pro-life" ears, but I'm going to attempt to explain, yet again, that pro-choice is just that, pro-choice. Not pro-ABORTION. Not "woman, do what I or some random strangers believe you should do with your pregnancy." Pro-choicers believe that the decision over whether to terminate a pregnancy belongs in the hands of the pregnant woman whose body is creating that new human life, because a woman's body is neither community property nor the property of the church, the sperm donor, or the zygote/embryo/fetus. A woman's body, including her womb, belongs to her and her alone.


This inability you forced-birthers have to comprehend that because pro-life = forced birth, then naturally pro-choice = forced abortion is the reason there can never be common ground between us.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 24, 2009 - 6:12pm.

bj survivor, i do not state anywhere in the above article, or anywhere else, that prochoice = proabortion. i don't believe that for one minute. please don't make assumptions that all your "enemies" think so ill of you.

and please don't make assumptions that necessarily prolife = coercion of women.


On Common Ground Columnist & Editor, Nonviolent Choice Directory

Submitted by Marysia on October 24, 2009 - 8:00pm.

True, you do not outright state that "prochoice = proabortion" but it is implicit in your implication that the murder of a pregnant woman by her boyfriend due to her refusal to terminate the pregnancy is somehow the work of a pro-choice extremist.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 24, 2009 - 10:29pm.

The problem I have with the above article is that it seems to assert that both Pouillon's and Johnson's murders were the work of pro-choice extremists and not one of you "pro-lifers" corrected that erroneous assumption. Drake has never self-identified as pro-choice, unlike Roeder who considers himself a pro-life warrior, nor has he ever been visited by or seemingly been in collusion with pro-choice activists, again unlike Roeder and many other "pro-life" terrorists. Drake's objection to the bloody fetus pictures is not proof of pro-choice sentiment, as even many abortion rights opponents object to them. Drake's murder spree also included two other men, totally unrelated to the forced-gestation movement, against whom he also held grudges.


And then this article gets even more offensive in its implication that Nelson, who allegedly killed his girlfriend over her refusal to have an abortion, is somehow pro-choice. Again, I can find no evidence that he self-identifies as pro-choice. To even imply such a thing, as the author of this article does, is disingenuous at best.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 24, 2009 - 10:00pm.

I agree completely with everything you've said here, BJ Survivor. I just wanted to let you know that.

 

The conflation of a couple of random whackjobs who murdered people for completely unrelated reasons and the pro-choice movement is ridiculous and offensive. I think the author of this piece owes pro-choicers an apology for making those statements, especially in their use here to illustrate some false "equality" wherein pro-choicers and anti-choicers have similar levels of violence against one another - an equality which does not exist and never has.

 

So-called "pro-lifers" have always been more violent towards pro-choicers than vice versa.  I don't seem to recall any pro-choicers bombing those hideously inaccurate, misleading, hyocritical "pregnancy help clinics" that anti-choicers run, but I've seen plenty of stories of so-called "pro-lifers" bombing abortion clinics. I've heard a lot about "pro-lifers" assaulting and using violence against pro-choicers. I've heard of and seen "pro-lifers" physically assaulting, harrassing, and otherwise intimidating any woman to even so much as enter a Planned Parenthood clinic, regardless of her purpose there. I've heard "pro-lifers" scream at innocent women that they're going to Hell because they went to the clinic to get a pap smear.

 

There is simply no comparison, I'm sorry. The author's assumptions are patently false, and I will not be willing to "sit down and hear what the other side has to say" until the other side stops telling me I'll burn in Hell for picking up my birth control prescription, until they stop shooting at doctors whom I consider to be my heroes just for being willing to continue their work in the face of so much violence and vitriol from people who say they support life, until they stop telling me I'm a murderer for supporting a woman's right to bodily autonomy. Then maybe we can talk.

Submitted by The Same Profile on October 25, 2009 - 12:44am.

bj survivor & same profile,

of all the killings mentioned in my column, yes, the one with the most established tie to a particular ideology is that of dr. tiller. i am not denying that. i am simply pointing about that pouillon's killing & that of tonya johnson have been swept up into the abortion debate, too, & all three of these killings have been allocated, rightly or wrongly, to one "side" or another.

i am describing how these killings have been perceived & dealt with--not grappling with the issue of which specific killing has which specific ideological connection.

and then i make this most essential point:

-- We can listen more respectfully and profoundly to one another and our self-definitions. In response to Pouillon’s murder, or that of Tonya Johnson, many pro-choicers feel a deep, visceral sense that this action is dissonant with their movement and their values. This is exactly how peaceful abortion opponents —the vast majority— feel about the killings of abortion providers.--

in other words, *neither* movement is about such killings. those who harass, assault, & kill abortion providers do not merit the name "prolife" even if they brandish it about...they may be antiabortion, but they are *not* prolife. every opportunity i have had, i have personally challenged such people & pointed out their hypocrisy.

the gulf between people who do this sort of thing & people who really do seek to respect life before, during, & ever after birth is as great as that between real prochoicers, who seek to provide a wide range of choices, including relief from domestic violence, & those who try to force women to have abortions.

this is *very different* from saying prochoice = boyfriend shoots pregnant girlfriend who refuses abortion.

i mean, i call for more respectful & profound listening to one another's self-definitions. when real prolifers listen more deeply to real prolifers, they understand that prochoice means what it says.

by the same token, when real prochoicers listen to real prolifets. they understand that prolife means what it says. i don't know, maybe because of the ugliness you have witnessed, maybe it is hard to believe "prolife" could mean something quite other than, even opposed to, that ugliness?


On Common Ground Columnist & Editor, Nonviolent Choice Directory

Submitted by Marysia on October 25, 2009 - 11:56am.

the one with the most established tie to a particular ideology is that of dr. tiller

The only one with an established tie to ANY movement is the murder of Dr Tiller. Those ties are to Operation Rescue (and a convicted felon in OR who happens to be their Senior Policy Analyst) and, if Roeder's visitors in jail are any indication most of the anti-abortion movement which, in turn, has a well established decades long history of felonies (including but hardly limited to murder) and terrorist tactics which are used to bully, intimidate and to make it's point.

i am describing how these killings have been perceived & dealt with--not grappling with the issue of which specific killing has which specific ideological connection.

On the contrary you are CLEARLY pretending that the tendency towards murder is mutual. It's implicit throughout the entire article. Likewise, nowhere did you point out that abusive men who murder their pregnant wives and girlfriends (the most common form of death for pregnant women in the US) have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the pro-choice movement.
They aren't 'abortion war killings' They are pro-life killings, bombings, arsons, acid attacks, assaults, stalkings etc.
So may I respectfully suggest that you grapple with those issues? Because it seems to me that you're lecturing the wrong folks.

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on October 25, 2009 - 1:37pm.

colleen,

if you care about fair representation, then please consider that maybe not everyone who identifies as prolife = the taliban. hmmmm, last time i checked, neither i nor any of my likeminded friends was bloodily imposing a fascist intepretation of sharia law. nor wanted to.

in this article i am dealing with the ugly *perceptions* prolife & prochoice often have of each other. i am dealing with the *perceptions* that large numbers of people have that all these killings have something to do with the abortion war.

these perceptions of the "other" as inherently, by-definition bloodthirsty *on both "sides"* hinder the recognition of common ground & cooperative action to reduce abortion. that is my concern in the above column. do i have to take on absolutely everything in one or two breaths?

i have & i do challenge antiabortionists who resort to tactics that are anything but life-revering. just because you didn't hear me --that doesn't mean i haven't done this.

so why i am here on this prochoice website? because someone prochoice, cristina page, asked me to be part of on common ground. common ground is about engaging both "sides" not just expressing the prochoice one. both prolifers & prochoicers read this website.

and i am saying these things for anyone who cares to listen, whatever their position on abortion itself, anyone who wishes to seek peace in the abortion war & alleviate the root causes of abortion.


On Common Ground Columnist & Editor, Nonviolent Choice Directory

Submitted by Marysia on October 25, 2009 - 2:50pm.

maybe not everyone who identifies as prolife = the taliban. hmmmm, last time i checked, neither i nor any of my likeminded friends was bloodily imposing a fascist intepretation of sharia law. nor wanted to.

The Taliban aren't fascists, they're fundamentalist theocrats who wish to impose their religious views by force on their society.

The fact that the anti-abortion movement in the US is overwhelmingly fundamentalist Christian rather than fundamentalist Muslim does not change the fact that it's mainly led and peopled by theocrats who wish to codify their religious views into law and impose them on the rest of us by force. This is the parallel you appear to have completely missed. Dr Hern spoke an unpleasant truth.

The sig is a quote from Warren Hern, a brave man and one of the few doctors still performing medically necessary late term abortions in this country. Others have been murdered or intimidated into retirement by the terrorist strategies of the anti-abortion movement. Dr Hern receives regular death threats from the 'pro-life' movement. I have several friends I've been close to for many years who work at Planned Parenthood offices and clinics (and not even ones where abortions are performed) They also are forced to endure regular threats to their lives, persons and property. I want the violence and threats to stop and see no way for that to happen without you folks acknowledging the truth and the truth is that much of the progress of the anti-abortion movement has come as a direct result of a strategy that condones and encourages bullying, intimidation and violence. And no, I don't believe that pretending the violence has been mutual or sitting around and singing kum-ba-ya will be at all helpful.

do i have to take on absolutely everything in one or two breaths?

I think you should probably rethink and apologise for statements like this:

In response to Pouillon’s murder, or that of Tonya Johnson, many pro-choicers feel a deep, visceral sense that this action is dissonant with their movement and their values.

In this and several other places you were CLEARLY implying that both murders were linked to the pro-choice movement. I find your continued refusal to even acknowledge that, in your mind these murders are ideologically linked to the pro-choice movement odd when your bias is glaringly apparent and permeates the entire article.

I most certainly do not believe that "many" pro-choice men and women agree with you on this. Indeed when you wrote this article originally I researched the Tonya Johnson murder because I was curious about who was agreeing with the notion that abusive men who murder their pregnant wives and girlfriends are somehow ideologically tied to the pro-choice movement. I found that outside of the local news in Ms. Johnson's community the only 'news' sites carrying this story at ALL were 'lifenews' and 'lifesite' and that those two sites were the ones attempting to link the murder with the pro-choice movement. No surprise there.

I found no mention of "many prochoicers feel(ing) a deep, visceral sense that this action is dissonant with their movement and their values" because I found no instance of ANY pro-choicers acknowledging a link between these murders and the pro-choice movement. Because there wasn't/isn't one. So yes, I expect you to at the very least to acknowledge this.

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on October 25, 2009 - 6:15pm.

Thank you, Colleen, for your restrained response, because I've had it up to here with Little Miss Forced Gestation Feminist's obfuscation and outright lies nuance and complexity.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 25, 2009 - 9:24pm.

bj survivor--whatever our disagreements about the parameters of feminism, somehow how i doubt that disparaging a woman in her 40s as "Little Miss" comes under the rubric of feminism.

and what does it accomplish to use character assasinating words as lies, obfuscation, forced gestation? it surely does not help further cooperation on alleviating the root causes of abortion.

On Common Ground Columnist & Editor, Nonviolent Choice Directory

Submitted by Marysia on October 26, 2009 - 12:21pm.

Pray tell me, Marysia, just how it is that lying, as you have done in this pile of drivel, contributes to cooperation in this common ground experiment? Can you not understand how it is that continuing with that lie will cause others to become very angry with and antagonistic toward you?

When you claim that Drake and Nelson are examples of pro-choice violence against pro-lifers, you are lying. It has been pointed out to you repeatedly that neither of these men either self-identified as pro-choice nor had any ties to pro-choice activists/organizations, yet you refuse to acknowledge this. Instead, you obfuscate by claiming:

of all the killings mentioned in my column, yes, the one with the most established tie to a particular ideology is that of dr. tiller. i am not denying that.

And then refusing to acknowledge the fact that it is Roeder alone who has any ties to a particular ideology, and that ideology is "pro-life" and that organization is Operation Rescue.

So, I apologize for the "Little Miss Forced Gestation Feminist" comment. It was childish and inappropriate. But I will not apologize for calling a spade a spade.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 26, 2009 - 2:19pm.

colleen, i may not agree with what dr hern does for a living, but i see his bravery, just as i as a pacifist can see the bravery of people in the military. i hope he lives out his lifespan. i work for gun control, i challenge people who protest abortion in ugly ways, i reported someone recently to the fbi even....because i don't want dr hern or other providers to be subjected to the violence that no human being deserves, no matter what.

i wish i could communicate to you how awful violence against providers is considered by many on my "side."

i wish i could communicate to you the prolifers i know who recognize that prochoice means what it says. or the fact that i personally feel utterly responsible & obligated every time i hear a prolifer equate prochoice w/ forced abortion, to challenge that equation, because it's unfair.

if you aren't persuaded by what i have to say, that's your prerogative. i am sure you have your own heartfelt reasons for the stance you take. but i wish you would at least recognize that others may have their own equally deep reasons for thinking differently. character assasinating language towards someone who disagrees is a setback, not progress.


On Common Ground Columnist & Editor, Nonviolent Choice Directory

Submitted by Marysia on October 26, 2009 - 12:39pm.

i wish i could communicate to you how awful violence against providers is considered by many on my "side."

I'm not disputing that some people in the anti-abortion movement abhor violence. I'm saying that the use of intimidation, bullying and violence has been an effective strategy of the 'pro-life' movement since the '70's. I'm also saying that political violence has not been a strategy of the pro-choice movement and am appalled by those who are so anxious to avoid looking in the mirror that they make outrageous claims or pretend that there has been some sort of paralleled violence from the pro-choice movement. An example of what i mean by an outrageous claim is the notion that men who murder their pregnant wives and girlfriends because they wish to avoid the responsibilities of fatherhood are in any sense connected to the pro-choice movement.

character assasinating language towards someone who disagrees is a setback, not progress.

I am sorry that you translate thoughtful criticism written out in a logical manner and with examples as "character assasinating language". The fact nevertheless remains. The pro-choice movement had nothing whatsoever to do with those two murders and, despite your claims to the contrary, that claim plus the notion that both sides are equally violent permeates your entire article including the title.
Today we learn that the anti-abortion movement intends to hold an ebay auction to help pay for Scott Roeder's defense. Seriously, I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried.
the pro-choice movement does not kill people, set buildings on fire, make death threats or blow stuff up etc. The 'pro-life' movement has done all of these things and more for a good long time. Pretending that pro-choicers need a little talk so that we can help prevent 'abortion wars murder' not at all helpful and is insulting to your audience.

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on October 26, 2009 - 1:50pm.

I'm saying that the use of intimidation, bullying and violence has been an effective strategy of the 'pro-life' movement since the '70's.

 

collleen,

 

I find this comment a bit odd.  Do you think that 'intimidation, bullying and violence' has saved lives or otherwise protected the unborn?  Do you think these strategies have increased a respect for life on anyone's part? 

 

Maybe you're drawing a distinction between Pro-Life and 'pro-life'.  The movement you're putting quotes around may be the movement dedicated to inciting violence, degrading women, curtailing communication and, in the end, causing more abortions.  I know who those people are -- although I would never choose to spend time with any of them.  We've both read plenty of stories about people in the 'pro-life' movement.  Can you and I agree that people like Terry Randall and Scott Roeder are members of the 'pro-life' movement?

 

What in the world can be done to stop 'pro-lifers'?  These people dismay me for all the reasons they dismay you -- plus one more reason that may not be important to you.  They make life a lot less secure for the very young! 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 27, 2009 - 7:30pm.

It's 'effective' because it brings the contributions rolling in. There's nothing else that motivates people quite like the feeling of vicariously participating in slut-shaming or a lynching.

As to whether it actually 'saves lives', of course not, but that isn't the point. The point is for Randall Terry to be able to afford that "$432,000 home near St. Augustine, Fla., in South Ponte Vedra Beach."

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/945796/posts

Submitted by crowepps on October 27, 2009 - 8:21pm.

It's 'effective' because it brings the contributions rolling in.

 

crowepps,

 

You do realize how cynical you're being, don't you?  Your line of thinking would lead one to think that a religion is successful based on how much money it makes rather than on whether or not it's successful in getting people to love their neighbors. 

 

You're a very well-read, thoughtful person.  Surely I'm not the first person to point out to you the fact that a mind that's overly attuned to money isn't fit to work for justice.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 27, 2009 - 9:02pm.

Just how successful HAS religion been at getting people to "love their neighbor"? How did that work out in The Crusades? In Paris on St. Bartholemew's Day? In Northern Island? In Bosnia? In Jeruselum? How are the toddlers suspected of being witches doing in Nigeria? Funny how when something has never worked in the past, people insist that the solution is MORE of what has never and doesn't now work.

 

But how successful has religion been at getting those contributions rolling in by first teaching them they're 'damned' and then promising them 'salvation'? Ever seen the gold chapels of Portugal or the Golden Buddha? It's almost embarrassing to check out the lavishness of the Vatican in times of famine. Funny how somehow the focus of religion at its most exalted is rarely on the poor but instead by holding ceremonies in front of the amassed gold gathered 'in His honor'.

 

There are a lot of people out there who measure out justice according to the cash stake of the participants. You're surely aware that there aren't too many upper-middle class white kids in jail for snorting cocaine because they get
'diverted into treatment programs' as compared to the number of poor redneck or black ghetto kids who are serving many years for the felony of having a few Oxys, a rock of crack or a baggie of grass.

 

Surely you're aware that fraudsters FOCUS on devout religious people because their credulous, loving nature makes it easy to take advantage of them? You surely don't still believe that Jim and Tammy Fae were REALLY 'called to the ministry' instead of the trough?

 

Frankly, after years of disappointed idealism, when somebody tells me that God has given them 'a revelation', the little PayPal button over at the side or down at the bottom completely negates any possible good that might be contained in their message. I have seen enough enthusiasm over 'inspired paintings' (voluntary contribution before viewing), self-published 'inspired words' (volumes 1 through 3 at $50 per) and 'inspirational lectures' (voluntary contributions required) to believe with PT Barnum that there's a sucker born every minute.

Submitted by crowepps on October 27, 2009 - 9:46pm.

 

Surely you're aware that fraudsters FOCUS on devout religious people because their credulous, loving nature makes it easy to take advantage of them? You surely don't still believe that Jim and Tammy Fae were REALLY 'called to the ministry' instead of the trough?

 

crowepps,

 

Surely, by now, you realize that I don't have a book to sell you, a shrine for you to visit or an icon for you to buy.  If I say to you that I believe that the secret to a happy life is to follow the precept to love your neighbor I've given away the entire store of my knowledge about religion and I've got nothing left to offer you -- either for money or for other considerations.  Maybe I have one other thing to offer, but it's something you already have -- and that's the conviction that people who try to add something more to religion are running a scam and you ought to be wary of them.

 

I am a fifty-five year old heterosexual white man living in a society that favors men over women, favors straight over gay, favors light-skinned people over dark-skinned, and favors people in their middle years over the young or the old.  What reason would I have to rail against injustice if I hadn't swallowed the 'love your neighbor' kool-aid?

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 28, 2009 - 10:06am.

What reason would I have to rail against injustice if I hadn't swallowed the 'love your neighbor' kool-aid?

Making speeches about how people shouldn't have sex without considering the 'grim fact' that a pregnancy might result or insisting that women should love their zygotes doesn't sound like a demonstration of loving your neighbor to me. It has more than a tinge of self-righteousness.

Submitted by crowepps on October 28, 2009 - 3:16pm.

It has more than a tinge of self-righteousness. 

crowepps,

 

It would certainly be a shame if any shortcomings I have in the self-righteousness department got in the way of you and I having a constructive discussion about how someone would act, or think or feel if s/he truly considered zygotes to be her/his travelling companions along life's path.  Suppose I include zygotes in my definition of 'neighbor'.  Would it not be loving for me to urge people to take my neighbor's needs into consideration before making potentially life-altering decisions?  You use the word 'grim' -- let's pick a different word.  Can we say that contemplating the effects an unwanted pregnancy would have on a developing zbef should be 'sobering'.

 

I want people to exercize sober judgment when their behavior has profound effects on their neighbors.   Is there any room to plead for sobriety without being self-righteous?

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 28, 2009 - 5:16pm.

Suppose I include zygotes in my definition of 'neighbor'.

Feel free to treat your own zygotes as your neighbor. Except, of course, that you no longer can create any.

Would it not be loving for me to urge people to take my neighbor's needs into consideration before making potentially life-altering decisions?

The problem here is that you're not talking about YOU treating the zygotes as neighbors. You're talking about lecturing OTHER people to treat them as neighbors. The self-righteousness comes not from the idea, but from the fact that you have several times defined those who agree with you (and by implication yourself) as "more fully human", "further evolved morally", etc., while focusing your attention on a situation in which you personally will never have to take the risk. You feel really good about yourself for doing so but have selected the one 'neighbor' to care about who will never make any demands on you whatsoever, while pretty much ignoring the fact that the women 'neighbors' whom you are lecturing are the ones who have to come up with and process the 50,000 calories of the pregnancy, have to endure labor, and that it is their health and life at stake.

You use the word 'grim' -- let's pick a different word.

It was your word. If you want to abandon it, pick another.

Can we say that contemplating the effects an unwanted pregnancy would have on a developing zbef should be 'sobering'.

 

I want people to exercize sober judgment when their behavior has profound effects on their neighbors. Is there any room to plead for sobriety without being self-righteous?

I have no problem with pleading for sobriety, but it tends to ring a little hollow when the plea is coming from someone who was irresponsible when young but who now is older and can't drink anymore.

 

As you know I am an omnivorous reader. I am well aware of the long list of things that have been considered 'Mom's fault', miscarriages and stillbirths, birth marks and birth defects, physical ailments and mental illnesses, children's personalities and husband's brutalities, etc., etc., all the way back to Eve 'dooming' humans by eating the apple. It just seems to me that your promotion of the idea that women should eagerly seek and act upon research that can tell them monthly 'zygote created' to be followed more than half the time with the news 'zygote lost' and that their proper womanly response to this process should be agonizing over 'a lost child' is one more in a long list of ways historically to restrict women to a focus on their reproductive organs and to set up them up with the scientifically impossible task of 'gestating correctly' so they can internalize another way of being labeled inadequate.

Submitted by crowepps on October 28, 2009 - 6:42pm.

Feel free to treat your own zygotes as your neighbor. Except, of course, that you no longer can create any.

 

As you know, I got a vasectomy some time ago so I'm not going to be creating any more zygotes.  Is it hard for you to understand that my vasectomy is an expression of concern for zbef's?  I care enough about zygotes that I wouldn't want one to be put in the position where s/he was either going to die or live with a father who wasn't in a good position to do a superior job of raising her/him.

 

There are, and I've pointed this out before, roughly 500,000 zygotes and blastocysts living in the United States right now (or at any given time).  Two weeks from now each and every one of these young people will either have succeeded in implanting and be entering into a new phase of life with its own health and safety risks or s/he will have failed and have died an unmourned death.

 

What you think about these people matters.  If you think that their lives have intrinsic human value you will oppose the administration of drugs that are designed to eliminate their chance of success.  The more people who take that attitude, the more likely it will be that any particular woman will conclude that the use of such drugs is morally indefensible.  People don't make their decisions in a vacuum.  

 

A woman's determination to treat zygotes like humans will be influenced by the ideas of the people around her.  If there are plenty of people around who claim that it's unreasonable for her to treat a fertilized ovum with any more concern than she treats an unfertilized ovum she won't hesitate to eliminate one of her own in the event she doesn't want to bear her/him or raise her/him.  On the other hand, if there are plenty of people around her who understand that a zygote's life is as respect-worthy as that of a baby's she will treat her zygote with the same sort of care as she would treat her/him when s/he reaches infancy.

 

I have no problem with pleading for sobriety, but it tends to ring a little hollow when the plea is coming from someone who was irresponsible when young but who now is older and can't drink anymore.

 

crowepps, my life is an open book.  I lost a child to abortion and I now fault my own behavior on two counts: 1) I didn't fully consider the danger that an unwanted pregnancy has on other people and didn't take the need to prevent an unwanted pregnancy seriously enough and 2) When it came to my attention that I had fathered a child I didn't do everything I could to plead for her/his life.  Am I sad now about what happened then?  Yes, very much so.  Do I think my experience might prove valuable to a young man who has the opportunity to avoid walking down the road I followed?  Absolutely.

 

The fact that I encourage young people to be responsible doesn't mean that I've forgotten the evidence of my own youthful irresponsibility.  I actually try to be as upfront as I can be about that.  I don't say, "save yourself some trouble" because it makes me feel like I never got myself into trouble.  I say it because I want other people to be happy.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 29, 2009 - 10:34am.

It just seems to me that your promotion of the idea that women should
eagerly seek and act upon research that can tell them monthly 'zygote
created' to be followed more than half the time with the news 'zygote
lost' and that their proper womanly response to this process should be
agonizing over 'a lost child' is one more in a long list of ways
historically to restrict women to a focus on their reproductive organs
and to set up them up with the scientifically impossible task of
'gestating correctly' so they can internalize another way of being
labeled inadequate.

 

Did you miss this, Paul? You must have...otherwise you would not (again) treat us to: if there are plenty of people around her who understand that a
zygote's life is as respect-worthy as that of a baby's she will treat
her zygote with the same sort of care as she would treat her/him when
s/he reaches infancy.

 

Tell us, Paul...are women to grieve the loss of the zygote as we would grieve the loss of an infant? Are women to define their lives solely in terms of their reproductive capacities, living in a state of perpetual pregnancy until menopause, and always, ALWAYS knowing that we can never, ever measure up to the medical, social and moral standards you set because it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE?

 

Cripes!

 

 

 

 

 

Submitted by ahunt on October 29, 2009 - 12:49pm.

I want people to exercize sober judgment when their behavior has
profound effects on their neighbors.   Is there any room to plead for
sobriety without being self-righteous?

 

 Oooooh Paul...in short...no. because insisting that we all view zygotes as "neighbors" is wildly self-righteous. By all means... mourn the loss of  so many of your "neighbors," but allow the rest of us to live unencumbered by your excesses.

 

 

 

 

Submitted by ahunt on October 28, 2009 - 7:32pm.
This forum was created to give a platform for people like Marysia; pro-lifers looking for peaceful solutions in the abortion conflict and a way to share ideas with pro-choicers who are also looking for a better way. Marysia is far more representative of the pro-life public than the pro-life establishment. She supports contraception (not only that, she is an outspoken critic of the pro-life movement's opposition to contraception), she actively opposes violence, she calls for supports for poor-pregnant women and their families. I don't see Marysia as the enemy. To me, she's the solution. We'd all be a lot better off if this national debate were headlined by Mary Derr than Troy Newman, Randall Terry and Judie Brown. Dr. Tiller would probably still be with us if the invective didn't originate with, and encouraged by, national anti-abortion leaders. Which makes the way Marysia has been treated in this discussion all the more unfortunate. As pro-choice people interested in common ground, if we cannot have a respectful dialogue with Marysia, we can have it with no pro-lifer. Which prompts the question, are those engaged in the dialogue here interested in common ground? If not, and instead this is simply being transformed into another boxing ring, I ask that you take the aggression elsewhere--like jillstanek.com or lifeblogs.com. Those who take part in the discussions there rejoice in the sparing and name-calling. If, however, you are indeed interested in having a productive discussion, we are all for it. But the name calling has no place here, it also belittles the important points you deserve to make. We are working to create a space where the built-in hostilities are checked at the door. We realize not everyone wants that, but we ask to at least allow this forum devoted to a productive dialogue between pro-choice and pro-life people, the only one in existence, the chance to try the exercise in earnest. Marysia will continue to play a primary role in shaping this unique discussion. We hope you all will too. So, please let's ratchet down the vitriol if even just to try something new for a change. Thanks, Cristina Page, Moderator, OnCommonGround
Submitted by Cristina Page, Moderator, OnCommonGround on October 26, 2009 - 1:57pm.

I certainly appreciate that Marysia is one of the silent majority of abortion rights opponents who is vocally pro-contraception and pro-social safety supports. That seems only prudent if one's goal is to truly reduce the need for abortion and to support the health and well-being of women and families. I just don't see how it enhances a productive dialog to let stand the patently untrue claim that pro-choicers are guilty of an equal level of violence against pro-lifers, especially using the above two examples. It was pointed out to her again and again just how wrong those examples were and how insulting, but she continued to ride with it.

 

I should think that as a regular columnist, she should be held to a higher standard of truth and evidence than the rest of us. Frankly, this article reeks of vitriol; the passive-aggressive, sickly-sweet kind, but vitriol nonetheless.

 

So am I to understand that it is okay for "pro-life" columnists to spout lies and passive-aggressive insults while we pro-choicers just nod and agree or remain silent because we're to assume they are acting in good faith?

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 26, 2009 - 2:53pm.

Thanks BJ. I wouldn't characterize Marysia's claims as lies, but opinions, and in your view--unfair ones. I think you have many valid points--most of which help illuminate why the discussion often breaks down and we wind up making little progress. I, by no means, want you to "just nod and remain silent" about anything--that would be one of the worst possible outcomes. I think that your points are more persuasive, especially in this forum, if you take up Marysia's respectfully.  

 

Submitted by Cristina Page, Moderator, OnCommonGround on October 26, 2009 - 3:22pm.

I have watched this conversation with interest. I think there is a problematic disconnect here.

 

When someone states what is called "an opinion" based on and presented as "fact" it is highly problematic. It may be Marysia's opinion that life begins at conception and that she herself would not resort to abortion under any circumstance; it may also be her opinion that she should act to change laws that reflect her personal ideological and political views.

 

As I have said before elsewhere and continue to say: I can and do respect Marysia's personal views and would and do defend them as she applies them to herself.  I can not defend her application of her personal ideological or religious or moral opinions as legal writ to take away the choices of others. But her opinion on this is her opinion.

 

However, we are talking about something very different here.  What you are asking is that there be respect for what you are calling "opinion" and what I see as serious twisting....a complete disfiguration...of facts, then asking people to respect that set of opinions-turned-into-facts as legitimate grounds for debate, and asking they not get angry over it. 

 

There is no room for "opinion" in taking the facts of a case of systemic violence against providers over a long period of time, plucking two unrelated examples of violence (one against a woman by an abusive partner; the other by a deranged man who killed two and intended to kill at least three people for reasons of personal grudges) and turning those into "fact-informed opinions" about the "equivalency" of anti-choice extremist violence with a "created" pro-choice violence where none exists.

 

To suggest that there is pro-choice violence used as a political strategy or even on a small scale is not an opinion. It is an abuse of facts that, when stated as "opinion" and repeated takes on its own life because there are ideological reasons for perpetuating such an interpretation.

 

I think we are way too far down the road of equivalency in regard to the justifications of political views grounded in no or next-to-no facts on many levels in our political discourse, including but not limited to issues of choice.  To ask someone to find "common ground" on an "opinion" that serves to misrepresent facts which in turn are used to effectively slander a movement is not the ground on which to share any kind of commonality.

 

I think it is hard to ask people not to get angry or have really deep and legitimate concerns when equivalency is used as a political tool in the substitution of facts.

 

I also think that while it is very nice to know that someone like Marysia supports contraception, etc. it is politically naive for us to equate her own position with those of some mythical balanced "pro-life movement" out there.  The reality is this: There is a single-issue ideological movement funded and fueled by fundamentalist rhetoric and efforts to turn back human rights in a range of areas, including but not limited to women's rights.  They are focused and they are relentless, not just on abortion, not just on contraception, but on marriage, social safety nets, discrimination, hate crimes and a range of other things. 

 

There is simultaneously a majority of people in this country who, whatever label they are asked to apply to themselves in some survey, might say "pro-life" but are not politically motivated, activated or relentless in pushing some single-minded agenda to make sure all women get access to contraception.  They do not counterbalance the other.  They are not single-issue.  Nor are most of the people I know who are pro-choice.  That is the problem.  The pro-choice movement has to be far better at pushing back and framing from the outset, and we ourselves have to be willing to call ill-informed "opinion" just that and not accept equivalency in that regard.  I just think otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

 

Jodi

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Senior Political Editor on October 26, 2009 - 5:31pm.

Thank you, Jodi. I had just written something similar before I saw your post.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 26, 2009 - 6:25pm.

The pro-choice movement has to be far better at pushing back and framing from the outset, and we ourselves have to be willing to call ill-informed "opinion" just that and not accept equivalency in that regard. I just think otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

One of the things that makes this discussion particularly difficult is that in my experience too many ProLife advocates want to bring their own 'facts' as well. Statements like 'abortion is never necessary to save a woman's life' and 'hormonal birth control causes insufficient uterine lining which makes implantation fail which is abortion' are NOT fact, according to copious medical research easily available are demonstratively not fact, but are rejected because the person promoting these arguments hasn't done their own research and is relying on someone else's opinion ('I read that Dr. So-and-so said') or someone's baseless assertion ('they haven't proven it ISN'T true'). When the people discussing an issue can't agree to use the same set of facts, trying to reach consensus is pretty near impossible.

 

Another problem is that too often emotional investment is argued as though it were a fact. 'I feel really strongly that', 'it really upsets me when people believe' and 'I really care about' are not facts. Those types of statement are the debating equivalent of 'I'll hold my breath until I turn blue.'

 

The third type of argument that persistently is confused with fact is the unjustified philosophical argument, usually presented as if/then. 'If abortion is legal then it's okay to kill old people.' 'If abortion is legal then euthanasia of two year olds is okay.' 'If birth control is legal then all women hate children'.

 

I won't even get into why religious dogma isn't fact because there's no way you can get through to people who insist there must be universal moral standards because what they want is not rules to live by themselves but instead rules that they can use to justify their urge to punish other people.

Submitted by crowepps on October 26, 2009 - 6:39pm.

'abortion is never necessary to save a woman's life'

 

This is completely and utterly false!  There are occasions when abortion is a medical necessity.  In those cases it is impossible to save the life of the child -- and the loss of the child, although tragic, is inevitable.  If a woman's life can be saved it must be.  The only occasions where it is possible to protect the life of an unborn person is when the pregnancy does not threaten the mother's life or seriously compromise her health.

 

'hormonal birth control causes insufficient uterine lining which makes implantation fail which is abortion'

 

This is baloney!  In the first place, implantation is only a possibility if there's a conception and that would indicate that the birth control had failed.  Are you talking about situations where a woman comes off of birth control and then attempts to get pregnant?  Is there any reason to think that the hormones released during the last period would cause problems twenty-eight days later?  I have NEVER understood this concern.  If it's even possible, which I doubt, it is so improbable that it's foolish to worry about.

 

'I feel really strongly that', 'it really upsets me when people believe' and 'I really care about' are not facts.

 

This, crowepps, is completely true -- but I think you underestimate the importance of emotion in a discussion about these topics.  For example, the assertion that 530,000 women die every year due to complications from pregnancy or childbirth is a fact -- but so what?  The fact is only interesting to people who feel 'really strongly' that women ought to be safe, or who are 'really upset' by the thought of such suffering, or who 'really care about' this loss of life.  Facts of themselves don't make policy -- it's our reaction to these facts that brings meaning to them.

 

'If abortion is legal then it's okay to kill old people.' 'If abortion is legal then euthanasia of two year olds is okay.' 'If birth control is legal then all women hate children'.

 

I've heard people make arguments that are this stupid and it tries my patience for two reasons: 1) the people proposing the argument do nothing to protect the unborn and 2) the people justifying abortion can get worked up about how ridiculous the comments are. 

 

people who insist there must be universal moral standards because what they want is not rules to live by themselves but instead rules that they can use to justify their urge to punish other people.

 

crowepps, if some people are looking for ways to indulge their 'urge to punish people' what happens to the rest of us who are hungry to find a basis for forming rules that will make everyone safe? 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 26, 2009 - 8:34pm.

This, crowepps, is completely true -- but I think you underestimate the importance of emotion in a discussion about these topics. For example, the assertion that 530,000 women die every year due to complications from pregnancy or childbirth is a fact -- but so what? The fact is only interesting to people who feel 'really strongly' that women ought to be safe, or who are 'really upset' by the thought of such suffering, or who 'really care about' this loss of life. Facts of themselves don't make policy -- it's our reaction to these facts that brings meaning to them.

That fact is compelling on an emotional level to the women themselves and their friends and family. It's totally unnecessary for anyone else to be emotionally invested in caring about it. My position is that those women and their friends and family who are actually involved in the situation should have every option possible and no limits on their decisions because of the emotional reaction of those who are not involved. The emotions of strangers are totally irrelevant to the situation and unpersuasive as an argument supporting the 'right' of those strangers to interfere.

Submitted by crowepps on October 26, 2009 - 10:17pm.

That fact is compelling on an emotional level to the women themselves and their friends and family. It's totally unnecessary for anyone else to be emotionally invested in caring about it.

 

crowepps,

 

We're talking, here, about the abject suffering of the poor and the neglected.  Somebody's going to have to get emotional in order for things to improve!  You can't possibly believe that logic and reason in and of themselves are going to right the world's wrongs. 

 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 27, 2009 - 9:08pm.

We were actually talking about women whose lives were at risk because of pregnancies.  The emotionalism or sentimentality of other people is totally irrelevant to their situations or their decisions about the recommendations their doctors make to them.

 

You can't possibly believe that logic and reason in and of themselves are going to right the world's wrongs.

 

We've tried sentimentality, emotionalism, judgmentalism and theology for 10,000 years unsuccessfully.   Abandoning what has been proven to make things worse and instead trying logic and reason may seem extreme, but let's give it a chance.

 

Personally, if I had to choose between getting help from someone who really, really, really CARED and someone who was helping because logic and reason indicated it was his or her best interest to do so, I'd take the second every time.  They would be unlikely to flitter off and go really, really, really CARE about someone else if I wasn't obsequious enough.

Submitted by crowepps on October 27, 2009 - 9:58pm.

crowepps, if some people are looking for ways to indulge their 'urge to punish people' what happens to the rest of us who are hungry to find a basis for forming rules that will make everyone safe?

You could make a good start in the right direction by protecting them from the people who use religion as an excuse for their urge to punish.

Submitted by crowepps on October 26, 2009 - 10:21pm.

Considering the vehement protestations of non-violence from various ProLifers, they might want to direct some of their energy towards shutting down this particular publicity stunt:

"Abortion foe urges 'Burn in Hell' protest

By ANN SANNER, Associated Press Writer Ann Sanner, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 49 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Anti-abortion activist Randall Terry is calling on people to burn effigies of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid this Halloween, as part of a "Burn in Hell" video contest to protest the health care legislation in Congress.

Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, said Tuesday that the contest serves as a political and spiritual statement that "gives people a chance to peacefully vent their rage."

"If Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid force us to pay for child killing and they die unrepentant, they will burn in hell for this," Terry said in a telephone interview.

But House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., called the contest "unfortunate."

"I don't think appealing to people's anger and in effect inciting them to acts which either display or in any way project violent acts is consistent with rational discussion of very critical issues," Hoyer told reporters.

A YouTube video of the contest instructions shows how to print a poster of Reid and Pelosi and construct a stand for it. The clip shows a person dousing the Democratic leaders' images with flammable liquid. The next scene shows their picture going up in flames. People are then encouraged to take pictures, record and submit online the footage of their Oct. 31 protests.

"No, this is not a threat to their body," an unidentified man says in the instructional video, "but it is a threat to their soul."

Terry insisted the contest was not a threat to Reid or Pelosi. He contended that the Democrats' plan to overhaul health care would allow federal funding of abortion."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091027/ap_on_go_co/us_health_overhaul_burn_...

Submitted by crowepps on October 27, 2009 - 2:24pm.

To ask someone to find "common ground" on an "opinion" that serves to misrepresent facts which in turn are used to effectively slander a movement is not the ground on which to share any kind of commonality.

I think it is hard to ask people not to get angry or have really deep and legitimate concerns when equivalency is used as a political tool in the substitution of facts.

Thank you for this Jodi.
As I see it, the problem with any 'common ground' effort is that, along with violence, threats and intimidation the pro-life movement's other cottage industry is propaganda and lies. When I read that pro-choicers were encouraged to "speak up to counter the misinformation coming from the oppositon" I took it seriously. I wasn't aware that in the 'common ground' section pointing out dishonesty and propaganda was 'disrespectful'. My bad.

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on October 26, 2009 - 8:31pm.

I wouldn't characterize Marysia's claims as lies, but opinions, and in your view--unfair ones.


With all due respect, Cristina, you are mistaken. "Purple is the prettiest color ever" and "Gattaca is the best movie ever created" are opinions, as they only identify personal preferences. When an opinion treads into the territory of verifiable fact, then it ceases to be merely opinion and instead becomes an assertion. And you'd better be able to back up your assertions with evidence if you want to be taken seriously, especially when we are attempting collaboration between ideological opponents. It's not that difficult and it's not unreasonable to expect this.


If I were to say, "Religion is stupid and all religious people are mentally defective," then I'd expect to be thoroughly trounced and I wouldn't expect to be able to hide behind "well, it just my opinion." If one were to say, "I don't believe the Holocaust ever happened," they'd better damn well provide evidence for that 'opinion.' Same goes for those who say, "I don't believe in evolution and it needs to stop being taught in schools." Et cetera. Ad nauseum. Those are opinions, but they are also assertions for which evidence that clearly refutes them abounds, just like Marysia's assertion in this insulting article.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on October 26, 2009 - 6:20pm.

So am I to understand that it is okay for "pro-life" columnists to spout lies and passive-aggressive insults while we pro-choicers just nod and agree or remain silent because we're to assume they are acting in good faith?

If you assume that they are acting in good faith and they make a statement which you know to be untrue or believe insulting, then the most persuasive (and respectful) thing to do would be to provide them with the truth or point out the insult instead of attacking them personally.

 

As an example, the assertion that the men who kill or assault their girlfriends/wives in an attempt to FORCE them to have an abortion are demonstrating 'ProChoice values' is ridiculous on its face. Attempting to FORCE someone to do something has as little to do with Choice as attempting to prevent them from being able to do it. In either case, the person is acting to TAKE AWAY that person's choice, ignore that person's agency, and meet their own needs instead.

 

I think CPC's perform a valuable service in any case where they help a women who does NOT want an abortion to avoid having one by providing her with assistance, even if that assistance is merely assisting her to qualify for welfare. I think CPC's are a disservice to women when they enshrine their own ideology as the 'good' they are trying to promote, ignore the real life consequences, and congratulate themselves on being 'successful' because they have prevented an abortion even though the end result is a child permanently damaged by the unmediated consequences of being unwanted.

 

Certainly to insist that one's personal moral code is 'natural law' and to take advantage of the distress of someone who is vulnerable in order to 'convert' them into believing the same thing is something that's so traditional for religions that the monstrous lack of ethics involved isn't even noted unless the reverse happens. "Mother Theresa takes care of the dying without trying to get them to change religions!! How astonishing and unusual!" How sad that it is.

 

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

- Steven Weinberg

Submitted by crowepps on October 26, 2009 - 3:37pm.