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A Federal Employee Expresses Outrage on Stupak

Carole Joffe's picture

This article appeared in the Fall 2009 issue of Ms. Magazine and is reprinted here with permission from Ms.

“Our medical experts have determined that your life was not in danger and you could have carried the pregnancy to term. And, by the way, you owe us $9,000.”

Her voice breaking, D.J. Feldman, a Washington, D.C. federal employee, recently spoke to the press about her struggles with her insurance company after she aborted a much-desired pregnancy because of a fetal diagnosis of anencephaly (the absence of a major portion of the brain, skull and scalp). The insurance would only cover abortion in the case of rape, incest or a threat to her life, so the fact that if Feldman had continued the pregnancy, it would have been both physically and emotionally grueling—resulting either in a fetal demise, a stillbirth, or a live birth of a newborn who would quickly die—had no effect on the insurance company’s decision.

The primary culprit in this situation is not really Feldman’s insurance carrier, however, but the U.S. Congress. For decades it has imposed such unconscionable restrictions on abortion coverage for federal employees, as well as on women in the military, Native Americans using government provided health facilities and women on Medicaid in a majority of states.

Feldman is speaking out now because of her outrage that the notorious Stupak-Pitts amendment to the House health reform measure would extend such federal bans on abortion coverage to the millions of women who are enrolled in the private insurance market. Under this amendment, any insurance plan that wishes to be part of the new national health-care exchange would be prohibited from offering abortion coverage, although most insurance plans currently offer this coverage.

As Nancy Northrup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights, which organized the press conference at which Feldman spoke, put it: “The ban on abortion coverage represents an enormous and unprecedented incursion into the terms of the private insurance market….Stupak-Pitts would regulate abortion coverage for people working for private employers or those who are self-employed.”

The press conference also featured a television advertisement that has just been produced by the Center which effectively points to the unfairness—if not the absurdity—of such a ban. The ad will run on MSNBC, other cable stations and media websites.

As traumatic as D.J. Feldman’s story is, she acknowledges that she is more fortunate than many other women in her situation, since she and her husband were able to pay for her abortion themselves. But she doesn’t want other women forced into a similar situation, especially those without extra financial resources. Feldman has not only spoken to the press but also visited various Congressional offices to speak against Stupak-Pitts. “I realized I had a moral obligation to speak out,” she said.


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119 comments
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The insurance company and the US government is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT to barr coverage for late term abortion where there is no threat to the woman's life. It is very tragic when a fetus develops without organs, but that still does not constitute a threat to the woman's life or make that fetus less worthy to be carried to term. I would NEVER, EVER support an ammendment to help a woman end a pregnancy in the case of fetal anomaly. Not only does it violate my beliefs about abortion, but it is a form of prejudice. I feel like stories like these are being used to manipulate people into thinking that abortion because of fetal anomaly equates to abortion because of catastrophic health concerns facing the woman. It's jsut not true, and the distinctions between life saving abortion and abortion done to save a woman from something that is emotionally grueling should be maintained. If getting an abortion is the way the woman wants to handle her situation, than she and her loved ones should have to pay for it or find another way to handle the situation, such as through post natal hospice care.
"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 19, 2009 - 11:13am.

"the distinctions between life saving abortion and abortion done to save a woman from something that is emotionally grueling should be maintained."

Using your own reasoning, why are there exceptions in the case of rape or incest? Could it be because society recognizes that carrying a pregnancy that is the result of rape or incest is an "emotionally grueling" thing to impose upon a woman?  Carrying a fetus with a death sentence is equally as emotionally grueling.

 

Christie

www.ourheartbreakingchoices.com

 

Submitted by Christie on November 19, 2009 - 2:11pm.

Progo35, your responses on this site are disturbing to me. To be so absolutely sure, to be so concretely black and white, frightens me. Nothing is life is certain, really. But it seems that you have an innate ability to draw black/white or good/bad boxes around life issues with little contextual information, little humility, and, certainly, with little regard for the human particularities of women's lives. 

 

Your perspective on women and fetuses is beyond my comprehension. How you can be judge and jury about reasons for abortion illustrates you inability to walk in another's shoes. Your fastidious but mindless adherance to some moral notion that places primacy of the possibility over the primacy of the real is beyond bothersome. In other words, it seems to me that your worldview (or is it your religion?) ensures that the fetus is the priority while the woman is the fodder/servant/incubator for the machinations of your ideology.

 

Lastly, you reference stories being used to manipulate. This country has a long history of propaganda and persuasion. Many of our early propagandists were instrumental in getting this country involved in WWI and both Iraq wars. The prolife movement is no different. They use outrageous storytelling to manipulate women.

 

Bottom line, I suggest that you are a neophyte in this larger conversation. I look forward to watching you mature or burn out. 

Submitted by Kate Ranieri on November 19, 2009 - 7:42pm.

Progo, that is an absolutely vile, grotesque sentiment. Are you seriously claiming that terminating a pregnancy because a foetus is anencephalic constitutes discrimination against the literally brainless? Please tell me the point of continuing a pregnancy when the foetus is definitely going to die. Seriously. Why should anyone be required to do that? How does it benefit anyone involved - including the doomed foetus?

 

You know, I would never, ever wish that situation on anyone, including you. And I would never, ever consider imposing my beliefs on anyone in that situation. Ever. You are a fundamentalist, Progo. I'm not meaning in the religious sense; I'm meaning in the sense that you seem to be convinced that there is a Right Way, and a Wrong Way, no exceptions, that you know the Right Way, and anyone who doesn't do what you know is Correct is Wrong. Sometimes there is no Correct answer, Progo. And sometimes you are wrong.

 

Do you understand why people get angry at you? It's the fact that you don't seem to have any concept of ambiguity; that sometimes, the most moral choice for someone else isn't what the moral choice would be for you, but it's still a moral choice. I really wish you would understand that, but at the very least, please try to understand why some of us are so offended by the beliefs you're expressing. You come across as having no empathy - and you may have plenty; I don't know - but that is how you come across.
Can you really not distinguish a person with a disability from a foetus with no brain, that has no chance at living? Anencephaly is not comparable to a learning disability.

 

Why in the name of whatever do you think it's ok to impose pointless suffering on women? Because requiring women carrying foetuses that are definitely going to die is an imposition of utterly pointless suffering. I don't understand it. Why would you want that?

Submitted by Emma on November 23, 2009 - 10:31pm.

Emma,

No sarcasm intended-I have to say that I appreciate you not wishing anancephaly upon my future children, in contrast to ahunt, who cannot seem to stop herself from doing so.

You ask if I want women to endure pointless suffering. I do not. I do not want women to have to carry anancephalic fetuses to term, I just don't think that abortion is an acceptable solution to the problem of an anancephalic fetus, which, in turn, results in my opposition to paying for procedures to prevent women from carrying such pregnancies to term. I would be happy to help pay for such procedures if they were not so directly antithetical to everything I know about human life and dignity. It's not because I want women to suffer that I oppose helping to pay for such procedurs, and it's not the money, either. I am happy to help pay for prenatal care, grief counseling, funeral arrangements, and anything else the woman needs. I just don't want to help fund an abortion.

 I'm sorry that I come across as not having empathy, as I do feel a lot of compassion for people in this situation. I feel that I do understand that women who choose to terminate such pregnancies may be doing what they are doing out of love for themselves and their child. I am not so cruel as to assume that women who make this choice are shallow people who don't care about their offspring. I just can't, in good conscience, have my tax dollars be a part of it.  That is what makes abortion such a complicated issue-even people who care about women who would gladly help them get abortions otherwise, feel that abortion is a step to far for them in what they can support because of the nature of that particular procedure. 

I wish that things were easier and that I could just say, "Sure, I understand. Of course I want my tax dollars to help you with that." But, I just can't. It is not compatible with my ethics. My ethics tell me to help women in these situations, but not in that particular way. I just can't live with that, and I don't think that I and other tax payers who want to help women but are morally opposed to abortion should have to. That, to me, if what complicates the abortion issue-some of us may want to help the woman exert her choice in this situation, but we feel that we are morally compelled not to. It would be easier if everyone saw abortion as a way to help women out of a terrible situation, or if everyone regarded abortion as wrong, but that is not the case. So, please don't assume that every tax payer who does not want to fund such a procedure is doing so because he/she doesn't care about the woman and her suffering. Positions on this sort of issue, like the positions people take in supporting abortion in this circumstance, are a lot more complicated than that.  

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 24, 2009 - 5:51pm.

I just can't, in good conscience, have my tax dollars be a part of it.

I don't have any problem with your insistence that your tax dollars can't be a part of it. I have a real problem with your insistence that MY tax dollars can't be a part of it.

Submitted by crowepps on November 24, 2009 - 6:47pm.

But, Crowepps-the federal government makes no distinction between pro choice and pro llife tax dollars. They all go to the same place.  

 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 24, 2009 - 9:27pm.

People don't get to decide individually where their tax dollars go -- of they did, there wouldn't be so many of them included in the defense budget.

 

What do you think? Should we set up a check-off system, where each taxpayer gets to allow or disallow categories in the budget where their couple grand in taxes can be spent?

 

I think it's pretty arrogant to take the view that every single penny in the entire $2,900,000,000 is your penny and that you are the only one who is important - that you personally get to pick what's funded and what isn't, since the corrolary is that other people aren't important and they don't get to fund anything unless you also approve.

 

I know I sure as heck never was asked whether my tax money could go for nonsense like abstinence education, the promotion of marriage, providing Viagra to sex offenders, crisis pregnancy centers or 'Come to Jesus' rehabilitation programs in the prisons led by ex-cons like Chuck Colson.

Submitted by crowepps on November 24, 2009 - 9:59pm.

Well, Crowepps, here's what I know:

Given that I live in MA, my tax dollars have been funding abortions for as long as I have been earning them-so, states clearly DO provide abortion funding through their own coffers. I'm not refusing to pay my taxes in response to them being used for such purposes, but I am certainly not going to stand up for my tax dollars being used to fund abortions on a federal level. My taxes are already being used to fund such procedures, and since I find such procedures abhorent, I am not going to cheer for more of them to be enabled through federal funding.

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 24, 2009 - 10:16pm.

You must really be doing well for a grad student if your taxes were $25.5 million. Or do you think down at the Revenue office they separate out YOUR tax dollars and send them right down to provide abortions? Maybe, knowing how you feel, they segregate every penny and make sure they go into the over a $1,264,362,905 spent on support of the disabled.

Submitted by crowepps on November 24, 2009 - 10:40pm.

don't be weird. i never said that i paid a lot of taxes from my part time job at barnes and noble, just that my state does fund abortions via its medicaid program, and that obviously, since taxes go toward anything the state pays for, my taxes already fund abortions.

ot"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 24, 2009 - 10:49pm.

Tax dollars are just like all other dollars, they can only be spent once and once spent, they are gone.  I don't think the taxes from a part time job at Barnes and Noble would be sufficient to pay for much more than a couple of expense account lunches where department heads suck up to the legislators on the budget committee.

Submitted by crowepps on November 24, 2009 - 11:01pm.

But you DO wish pointless suffering on women, progo...particularly poorer women lacking resources. How else can you reconcile:

 "I do not want women to have to carry anancephalic fetuses to term" with "I
just don't think that abortion is an acceptable solution to the problem
of an anancephalic fetus"

 

You DO want women to have to carry anencaphalitic pregnancies to term...to be forced to undergo the physical trauma  of cesarian, etc...BECAUSE there are no alternatives other than abortion.

 

Submitted by ahunt on November 24, 2009 - 7:22pm.

ahunt, I meant to say before that I'm so sorry your family went through such a tragic experience. xxxx

Submitted by Emma on November 25, 2009 - 10:20am.

I appreciate you not wishing anancephaly upon my future children, in
contrast to ahunt, who cannot seem to stop herself from doing so.

 

Guilty as charged. Think of it as the response of someone who has actually been a part of the  familial devastation of anencephaly, and has absolutely no tolerance for ANYONE who would subject me, my loved ones, or anyone else... to pointless, dangerous physical trauma, and the overwhelming emotional  toll...simply because doing so makes one feel good about one's beliefs.

Submitted by ahunt on November 24, 2009 - 8:00pm.

 Ahunt-I'm sorry, but the fact that your sister went through anancephaly does NOT give you the moral right to wish it on someone else. That is profoundly misanthropic and immature. I deal with a lot with my learning disorder and depression, but I don't go around wishing it on someone else- or someone else's CHILD, for God's sake-just so they will change their mind about how to respond to those issues. And no, I'm not comparing LD to anancephaly, I'm saying that it is wrong to wish one's own misfortune upon someone else, and that going through a misfortune does not entitle someone to wish it on someone else with impunity.

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 24, 2009 - 9:33pm.

Progo - Thank you for the very civil response. (also no sarcasm intended.) :)

I'm not feeling at all combative tonight, lol. I don't agree with you, but I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

Submitted by Emma on November 25, 2009 - 10:17am.

It is very tragic when a fetus develops without organs, but that still does not constitute a threat to the woman's life or make that fetus less worthy to be carried to term.

Less worthy? What does this have to do with the WORTH of the fetus? What we are talking about here is having the woman spend another four or five MONTHS growing a pre-dead fetus larger (and more difficult to deliver). How considerate of you to acknowledge that continuing to carry a grossly deformed fetus is "emotionally grueling". It's too bad that you can't also recognize that it is totally POINTLESS. Certainly you don't seem to feel that the woman's enormous physical contribution during those four or five months has any value and you don't seem to feel she is has enough 'worth' to deserve any consideration whatsoever.

 

There isn't much need for post-natal hospice care in these cases - the majority of anencephalic fetuses result in spontaneous abortion or stillbirths, and it is rare for anencephalic fetuses to survive more than a few hours.

How does anencephaly affect the pregnancy?
The diagnosis of anencephaly may be suspected if the alpha fetoprotein level is elevated. The diagnosis is confirmed by a targeted ultrasound performed by a tertiary care facility qualified to make a definitive diagnosis of anencephaly. If other anomalies are noted, amniocentesis may be offered to evaluate the chromosomes. The diagnosis of anencephaly in the fetus poses a slightly increased medical risk to the mother. Because of this fact and the fact that this anomaly is uniformly fatal for the baby, the treatment options offered are termination of the pregnancy or palliative care at the time of birth. One of the risks for the mother is development of polyhydramnios or an increased volume of amniotic fluid. This can be uncomfortable to the point of interfering with breathing. Polyhydramnios may increase the risk for preterm labor. The labor and delivery process is sometimes complicated by a failure of the cervix to dilate and the fetal presentation may not be head down which makes for a more complicated vaginal delivery and contributes to the dysfunctional labor or the failure of the cervix to dilate. There is a slightly increased risk of postpartum hemorrhage and placental abruption (placenta pulling away from the uterine wall), which also carries a risk of hemorrhage. Each of these risks, while low, is slightly higher than is associated with a normal pregnancy.
http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/34371/Nav/1/router.asp

Women who choose to give birth to anencephalic babies usually undergo a C-section, increasing the likelihood of a live birth; however, in over 55% of these cases the child is stillborn (1, 2). Curiously enough, there have been documented cases of anencephaly in twin births: while one twin may be healthy, the other may suffer from anencephaly. In such cases, women may choose to undergo a partial abortion, which carries some risk to the healthy twin. Other women choose to complete their term and deliver both babies with few complications.

The physical stress of carrying an anencephalic child is significant on the mother; besides experiencing great emotional distress, some women suffer polyhydramnios. Polyhydramnios is a condition in which an excessive amount of amniotic fluid leaks into the amniotic sac, causing a woman’s abdomen to exceedingly swell up. This is a somewhat painful condition, and can lead to the umbilical cord slipping in front of the baby, the placenta to prematurely separate from the wall of the uterus, and the fetus’ death.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/54

Submitted by crowepps on November 19, 2009 - 12:59pm.

Time to cue at least one 'pro-life' woman going on about how the doctors who tried to get her to kill her baby were wrong and HER anencephalic child is now 5 and reading at a 5th grade level.

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on November 19, 2009 - 1:19pm.

Sure, along with the enormous number of former miracle babies born alive at 20 weeks who somehow escaped the problems of retinopathy and retardation so that they actually can see and think and use a computer to participate in this forum -- the internet is a wonderful thing, ALL of us can represent that we epitomize what 'should' be true no matter how unlikely that actually is in reality.

Wood et al. report that the most common outcome of pregnancies that end between 20 and 25 weeks of gestation is stillbirth or death before admission to a neonatal intensive care unit (79 percent), the cheapest outcome, followed by death before discharge (12 percent) and survival to discharge (8 percent, with <1 percent dying after discharge but before 2 1/2 years of age). Among the survivors at 2 1/2 years of age, roughly half had some disability (about half of these had severe disability), and half had no disability. These findings will help inform parents about their baby’s chances for survival, normal function, and handicap and will make it possible for insurance companies and courts to compare the outcomes of this technology with other expensive procedures. Because of the substantial morbidity among these infants after discharge and their frequent need for specialized educational services as they grow older, (4) the rates should also be used by health care and education planners to estimate the need for services in populations with known rates of extreme prematurity.

http://www.edwardhumes.com/articles/editorial_nejm.shtml

Submitted by crowepps on November 19, 2009 - 1:48pm.

Crowepps-
Your post supports my point. The issue of whether or not carrying a fetus for another four or five months is "worth it" is a matter of subjective opinion. I think it is, you think it isn't. But what we do agree on is that if a woman's life is in jeopardy, her abortion should be covered. But, if it's not in jeopardy, than I disagree with you when you argue that not paying for a late term abortion of a disabled fetus devalues the woman or treats her as if she has no moral worth at all. It simply reflects the consensus that abortions that are not necessary to save a woman's life should not qualify for federal funding via my taxes or yours. And, if you care that much about making sure that women who have late term abortions for fetal anomaly get coverage, than set up a charity and use your own money.

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 19, 2009 - 3:14pm.

The vast majority of taxpayers in this country absolutely support abortions in these cases, and I don't see why the sentimentality or religiosity of a tiny minority should be given a veto over what MOST people don't mind covering with their tax dollars. Anencephalic fetuses are NOT 'disabled' - they are PRE-DEAD. They have absolutely NO chance of ever being conscious at all. Confusing that with 'disability' is pretty insulting. I know a lot of 'disabled' people, including my late mother, my sister and my son-in-law, and they all have actual working brains which provide them with personalities and consciousness.

Submitted by crowepps on November 19, 2009 - 3:24pm.

Crowepps-

Your outrage over my assertion that a fetus with anancephaly is disabled seems disingenous and ignorant within the context of disability rights. I have a learning disability, but I don't run around feeling offended because the universal symbol of someone in a wheelchair is used to denote disabled parking spaces, and I don't try to argue that someone with Down Syndrome isn't disabled because I have 26 chromosomes and he or she has twenty seven. To argue that your disabled family members have fully functioning brains and that therefore, a fetus missing part of it's brain is not disabled ignores legal and social definitions of disability, and strikes me as a strawman attempt to make what I said seem insulting to disabled people in general when it is in keeping with the disability right's movement's inclusion of anyone whose condition impedes a major life function. 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 20, 2009 - 6:44pm.

A fetus with anencephaly is dead, for all intents and purposes, and it disgusts me that you think my sister should have carried a doomed pregnancy to term, at the expense of her body, her health, emotional well being, and yes... her family life, just to satisfy some sick belief in "godly grace."

 

No slack this time, progo...

 

 

Submitted by ahunt on November 20, 2009 - 7:00pm.

Ahunt- First of all, I made no mention of God or grace in my discussion of this issue, so you're the one bringing those issues into the discussion, not me. Secondly,there is no such thing as "dead for all intents and purposes," at least from a scientific standpoint. Either someone/thing is dead, or he/she/it isn't. You can have the opinion about when death occurs, but that's an opinion, not a scientific fact. Moreover, this thread is about funding for abortion because of fetal anomaly-in the case of the woman it concerns-anancephaly. For the purposes of this thread, I am not saying anything about what your sister should have done, I am saying that I am not willing to help pay for abortion procedures for women who find themselves in your sister's position. I would be willing to help pay for an abortion that the woman needs to save her own life, but not otherwise. For that matter, I find it disgusting that you support aborting fetuses that are almost full term because of anancephaly or another kind of disorder. So, we're both disgusted together.

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 20, 2009 - 8:03pm.

Pardon me if I wish the nightmare and tragedy of anencephaly on you and yours, Progo...just to see how you and yours would  bring the doomed pregnancy to term, and wax eloquent about the "life-affirming" experience of minutes or hours spent with impending death, assuming that death did not occur months earlier.

 

And what is this "almost full term"? Anencephaly is usually identified  by 20 weeks...

 

Disgust? Your contempt for women and their families and their actual lives is what is disgusting. You would do it, if you could, wouldn't you? You would legally mandate that women facing doomed pregnancies carry to term? Yes? No? Maybe?

Submitted by ahunt on November 20, 2009 - 8:29pm.

See, that's what I love about some of  the "pro choice" people on this website. You claim to be compassionate and then wish tragedy and death on those with whom you disagree. If that did happen to me, I'm sure you'd be happy, ahunt, which is disgusting. Once again, THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LEGALITY OF ABORTION, IT HAS TO DO WITH WHO IS FUNDING IT, so stop distorting the issue. This isn't about whether I would legally mandate that a woman carry a fetus with anancephaly to term, it is about whether I would be okay with my tax dolars being used to fund such a procedure. Legal or not, I don't want my tax dollars involved. That places no requirements upon what a woman does with her own money or her family's money. 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 20, 2009 - 8:47pm.

There is a ton of crap I do not want my tax dollars paying for, Progo...but when it comes to the well being of poor women who are in the position of my sister...the freakin' one tenth of one penny of our personal tax obligation that would help them is good money well spent.

 

But while we're on the subject, Progo...would you, if you could...legally prevent women like my sister from ending the pregnancy?

 

Curious minds want to know.

Submitted by ahunt on November 20, 2009 - 9:10pm.

Ahunt-but this is what the issue with Stupak Pitts is. SP is supposed to maintain the status quo on no federal funding for abortion by not providing abortion coverage in the public option and not providing subsidies for plans to cover abortion. That is consistent with the Hyde ammendment. I'm willing to bet money that you want Hyde overturned. I do not. You really wanted a public option that would fund elective abortion, I did not. So, I don't buy that the issue here is whether or not I would legally compell women to carry a anancephalic fetus to term.  Moreover, you know enough about my feelings about late term abortion and handicap to guess about how I feel about the legality of late term abortion that is not done to save a woman's life. 

 

Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 20, 2009 - 9:22pm.

SP goes far beyond the mandate of the Hyde Amendment, and you know it.

 

SP prevents women from paying for their own reproductive health coverage with their own money.

 

Moreover, you know enough about my feelings about late term abortion
and handicap to guess about how I feel about the legality of late term
abortion that is not done to save a woman's life.  

 

Well heck, progo...come right out and say it...women carrying an anencephalitic fetus should be forced by law to carry the pregnancy to term...or to the stillbirth...regardless of the maternal health risks...

 

Just say it. You can do it, progo.

 

 

 

 

Submitted by ahunt on November 20, 2009 - 9:46pm.

I won't say something that's not true. You are conflating anancephaly with a pregnancy that threatens a woman's health.  

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 20, 2009 - 10:02pm.

For that matter, why don't YOU come right out and say, "I think Hyde should be overturned. I really want federal funding for elective abortions." 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 20, 2009 - 10:04pm.

All pregnancies threaten a woman's health, progo, or didn't you know that?

Submitted by ahunt on November 20, 2009 - 10:24pm.

A dead fetus in utero is in fact a life threatening condition.

Submitted by ahunt on November 20, 2009 - 10:30pm.

Honestly, ahunt, the way you just twisted facts to suit your agenda disgusts me. An anancephalic fetus that has not expired in utero is NOT "a dead fetus in utero." Until the fetus has actually expired, it is still alive. A healthy pregnancy does not present a grave threat to an individual woman's life, a distinction which I'm sure you understand, unless you plan to argue that a woman should, say, be able to get an elective abortion in her nineth month because the healthy pregnancy "threatens her health." 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 20, 2009 - 10:36pm.

You cannot be suggesting that anencephaly constitutes a healthy pregnancy.

Submitted by ahunt on November 20, 2009 - 10:51pm.

No, I'm not, but you may as well have, since when I pointed out that you are conflating an anancephalic fetus with a pregnancy that threatens a woman's health, you replied by saying that all pregnancies threaten a woman's health. By that logic, we should abandon the health requirement entirely and simply allow abortions up until birth because all pregnancies threaten womens' health.  

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 21, 2009 - 12:11am.

The distinction being that the anencephalitic fetus is known for dying in utero....

Submitted by ahunt on November 21, 2009 - 12:22am.

The profound distinction being that anencephaly is a death sentence, and such being the case, continuing to to threaten a woman's heath against her will is pointless, misogynistic, and utterly cruel.

Submitted by ahunt on November 21, 2009 - 10:36pm.

It's even MORE insulting when it's granted that she can do what she wants on her own as long as it doesn't take any money out of your pocket.  Making it crystal clear that the point isn't the fetus but instead the moola.

Submitted by crowepps on November 21, 2009 - 11:38pm.

Diggin' the claws, Crowepps, but I think progo is serious. She would, if she could, force women carrying anencephalitic pregnancies to go to term, undergo cesarian more likely than not, and then have them just...deal with it.

 

For progo, the filthy lucre is not a consideration,

 

 

Submitted by ahunt on November 22, 2009 - 12:23am.

Progo, two things:

 

One, legality and access are two different things.  Hyde, and now Stupak, work to reduce access, and further victimizes those who are already victims.

 

Secondly, there have been several different groups analysing Stupak (and not just pro-choice ones) who have said that the likely outcome down the road will be NO abortion coverage AT ALL, because it won't be worth it for the insurance companies to provide it, regardless of how it's paid for.

 

These two things together means that your support of Stupak would likely result in many women being forced to carry to term, because they are unable to afford an abortion, or attempt to induce a miscarriage themselves.  You're pretty much splitting hairs--the end result is pretty much the same, regardless of if you're saying "it should be illegal" or "I don't want to pay for it".

 

 

You also seem to take issues relating to disability (and I disagree that anacephaly is a 'disability', in the sense that it is a far worse condition) way too personally--somewhat understandably, but none of this is about you.  Any woman considering an abortion --whether for health reasons or any other--is already in a shitty situation.  Laws like Stupak only make those situations worse.

Submitted by Jayn on November 20, 2009 - 10:35pm.

You claim to be compassionate and then wish tragedy and death on those with whom you disagree.

 

Well, at least we agree that anencephaly IS tragedy and DEATH. My compassion, unlike yours, lies with the people actually experienceing the tragedy and death. Where DOES your compassion lie?

95+% of anencephalitic pregnancies are terminated. 55+% of non-terminations are stillborn. The majority of those carried to term are delivered via c-section.

 

Yes...I do wish you had to walk the long mile in the shoes of those actually dealing with anencephaly. Because just as "the only moral abortion is my abortion"...when anencephaly is YOUR problem...the rules abruptly change.

 

Unless of course...you believe that anencephaly only happens to pro-choice people.

Submitted by ahunt on November 21, 2009 - 10:25pm.

Frankly, ahunt, I find you wishing anancephaly on someone else's child disgusting. I'd say that that kind of thinking is sick, but that would be insulting to sick people. Nobody knows what would happen if their circumstances changed, but I am 99 percent sure that unless I was totally out of my mind, I would NOT have an abortion under those circumstances. The reason that I am not 100 percent sure is that I don't have a crystal ball and therefore can't predict what I would do with absolute certainty. For instance, I am adamently against assisted suicide, but I can't completely dismiss the very slim possibility that I might kill myself if I had a bad enough depressive episode. I don't believe in abruptly changing the rules just because you or someone you care about is in a certain situation, at leasdt in terms of one's moral convictions. If I lept off a bridge tomorrow, that wouldn't make my former stance against suicide wrong and the act of jumping off the bridge right. I believe that experiencing difficult situations oneself can deepen empathy for why people make the choices that they do, but it doesn't change the fundamental nature of certain acts as right or wrong.

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 22, 2009 - 5:03pm.

You are not pardoned, ahunt.  

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 24, 2009 - 9:35pm.

I didn't ask for your pardon, progo. There is no excuse for what you wish on women who have no resources and no defenses against the harm people like you would inflict on them. You won't get the well-insured, well-supported women: you'll only get the poor...the uninsured...the abandoned...the alone...sacrifices on the altar of your holy imperative.

Submitted by ahunt on November 24, 2009 - 10:39pm.

oh, im sorry. i did not know that being of a different opinion than you on this issue meant that i was asking for my future kids to have anencephaly. My bad. 

 

Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 24, 2009 - 10:41pm.

No progo...I was the one wishing the experience on you...

You get to ask for anything you want.

Submitted by ahunt on November 24, 2009 - 10:51pm.

Some people consider that an unwillingness to act compassionately towards someone in a terrible situation might encourage the universe to see to it that you get to experience that situation firsthand. Personally I think it's a lot more random than that, and hope nothing bad happens in your life, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that a direct personal experience where you get to walk in those shoes just might make you a little more humble and lessen your self-righteousness about the actions of the rest of humanity.

Submitted by crowepps on November 24, 2009 - 11:09pm.

 

Well, by that logic, I guess I can feel free to take the position that we "shouldn't be surprised" that Dr.Tiller was shot-after all, he did kill thousands of late term fetuses and then he was killed; and, you can feel free to take the position that  Mr. Poulin got what he deserved for displaying pictures of aborted fetuses outside high schools. Hey, it's just Karma. I don't think that, I think that's an evil way to think, but isn't that just as logical as you saying that because I disagree with ahunt and you on the issue of anancephaly, I "shouldn't be surprised" if I experience it?

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 24, 2009 - 11:26pm.