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"What If My Mother Had Aborted Me?"

Amanda Marcotte's picture

Kathleen Reeves turned her eyes to the way the recent and immediately notorious anti-choice episode of “Law and Order” employed the “born alive” myth that’s so near and dear the anti-choice heart.  I would like to tackle another hoary myth of the anti-choice pantheon that made it onto the show, the “How would you like to be aborted?” ruse.  On “Law and Order”, it shows up in the form of one of the detectives suggesting he was nearly aborted by his mother throwing herself down the stairs at 7 months---but instead, he was just prematurely delivered.  Like most of the episode---including an exchange a few moments before when the same detective suggests that forcing an 11-year-old to give birth is nothing short of a the most wonderful thing you can do---the exchange only works if you share the writers’ assumption that once penetrated, a woman can be assumed to have no feelings or thoughts worth respecting, and should be regarded as nothing more than a womb, and abortion is a frustrating misfire, much like when the clutch goes out on your car.

But let’s deal with the attempt to get around women’s basic human rights by appealing to the egotistical assumption that your own birth was inevitable, and that the only thing that could have threatened this inevitable trot to you existing was the legality of abortion.  “How would you like it if your mother had an abortion?” ask the anti-choicers, without realizing that’s like asking, “How would you like it if the night you were conceived, your dad decided to go to bed early while your mom stayed up to watch Johnny Carson?”  The answer is, you wouldn’t be here to regret their selfish actions in the abortion or late show department.

It’s a trick of the brain that makes us think this question has any meaning. We don’t remember a time when we didn’t exist, and for the slower-witted amongst us, this means that not existing isn’t quite real.  But even anti-choicers who buy into this line have to know there was a period before their lives began.  They may not feel it’s true, but they know it intellectually.  In fact, the question buys into the premise that we accept that our own “not-existing” was possible, because the question assumes that before you were born, your mother had the choice not to have you.  The question therefore folds in on itself in a vacuum of self-contradiction.

To ask it is to ignore the fact that any of us exist by pure chance, and that many things could have changed it so we weren’t here.  What if your parents never met at all?  I probably wouldn’t be here for something as simple as my grandparents moving to a different neighborhood in El Paso than the one they lived in.  That’s how my mother met my father, after all, but if she’d lived on the west side instead of the east side, they probably wouldn’t have met at all.  It is, after all, a big city.  Does that make settling in one neighborhood and not the other immoral, and if so, how do you know which is the moral neighborhood?  What if my grandmother’s first husband hadn’t died in the war?  I wouldn’t be here; that doesn’t mean that we should think wars are some great thing because they set in motion series of events that lead to certain births.  Truth is they also shut down another range of possibilities; think of all the children that man could have had and didn’t.

Some of us are here today because of abortion and birth control.  Many women tell the story of the abortion that they had to have because the time wasn’t right for a baby, but it led them on a path that made having a baby possible in the future.  The writer Susie Bright is a good example. She wrote:

In the case of my first abortion, the aftermath was the beginning of my realization that I was capable and desirous of having a child. I could feel the possibility, the confidence, for the first time. I didn't see that coming. I ended a relationship that I hadn't had the guts to say "No" to before. It was like I grew a spine— and my maternal instincts— out of the abortion decision. She now writes a column at Jezebel with her grown daughter Aretha, a daughter that might not exist if it weren’t for legal and safe abortion.

Contraception and abortion (to an extent) allow birth spacing, which reduces the chances of having an unhealthy baby or having an infant die.  It also improves maternal health, which means that getting pregnant frequently increases the chance of miscarriage.  Abortion and contraception play a role in creating not just life, but strong, healthy life, and the medical community knows it even if anti-choicers don’t.

But at its base, the “What if you were aborted?” question employs a model of reproduction that has no basis in biological reality.  Anti-choicers treat the whole process of reproduction as if getting pregnant is a rare and precious event, like finding a giant lump of gold in your backyard, and as if nature was stingy about attempts to create life.  If this was true, they might have more of a reason to get offended at attempts to control when you give birth.  But outside of those people who suffer from infertility (in which case, they have every reason to grab onto every chance at childbirth that comes along), the biological fact of the matter is that our reproductive systems are all about waste, all about killing billions in order to have the few that have the best shot.

Using abortion and contraception to make sure that you can give the few children you do have the best possible life fits neatly in with the way biology does it.  Men make enough sperm in a week to populate the planet; women are born with almost half a million eggs.  Many eggs that are fertilized never even implant, and even when pregnancy happens, 15 to 20 percent miscarry.  Nature throws a lot at reproduction, with the purpose of only having a few healthy babies as the final outcome.  This creates a lot of “what ifs” that never come to fruition, and obsessing over what if too long will drive you mad.  On any given day, there are billions of theoretical babies never born for the thousands that are born.  In the grand scheme of things, abortion doesn’t even shut down that many doors as it opens new ones.


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78 comments
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If the man-made event of abortion is "murder" or "killing", why aren't the natural events of miscarriage (and other natural events described above) a "death by natural disaster"?

Submitted by Harry834 on November 3, 2009 - 9:50am.

Well, that's just swell for you, Amanda Marcott-your parents were living in a wholesome environment, which substantially decreased your own chances of being aborted. YOUR mother wasn't doing drugs, being abused by her mother's boyfriend, and living with a mother who had such bad alcoholism that she died a few months after you were born. I, on the other hand, wasn't so fortunate-my biological mother was experiencing all these things. I WAS likely to be aborted, so I don't appreciate people who were conceived under better circumstances and didn't really face that possibility poo pooing away this concern. You honestly have no idea. Secondly, aborting a pregnancy that has already implanted is NOT the same as never having sex on a particular night-we are dealing with a life that has begun and is terminated vs. a life that never began in the first place. Plain old reason tells us that this is not the same thing at all.

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 3, 2009 - 12:37pm.

Were in great danger of not being born because this sperm swam faster than that.  Do you want to regulate sperm speed?  Do you feel sorry for all the millions of potential babies that weren't born because your sperm got there first?

 

Secondly, aborting a pregnancy that has already implanted is NOT the same as never having sex on a particular night-we are dealing with a life that has begun and is terminated vs. a life that never began in the first place.

 

Why not? Do you deny that sperm and eggs are human life?  Biologically, they are as alive as you or me, or embryos for that matter. They don't have feelings or thoughts or identities, though, so I don't consider them people. Neither do embryos, of course, so I'm consistent.  But you aren't.  Sperm and eggs fit your definition of "life", and yet, you refuse to consider ejaculating into a sock to be a crime.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on November 3, 2009 - 12:58pm.

That is a stupid comparison. Sperm and eggs have only the DNA of the woman and her partner. an embryo/fetus has an entirely new set of DNA, iand, just a few short weeks later, it's own organ systems, etc.  STUPID comparison.

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 3, 2009 - 1:13pm.

Do you think they're not real people? 

 

Sorry, no matter how you slice it, it seems that most people define "person" as someone with a brain and a separate identity.  The only time we don't do so is when we're looking for an excuse to take away women's basic human rights.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on November 3, 2009 - 2:39pm.

Identical twins having the same DNA has nothing to do with the abortion debate. Of course they have the same DNA-they formed from the same ovum that was fertilized to create a SEPERATE SET OF DNA from the woman's. The point is that the woman is taking a seperate life from her own when she has an abortion. My point is that a conception that never occurs and never results in an implanted pregnancy is not the same as a conception that never occurs. 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 3, 2009 - 2:56pm.

Identical twins are formed after implantation of the embryo into the uteran lining. There is one embryo that later splits into two (when the split is incomplete, the result is a set of cojoined twins). At what point does one life become two? Why consider fertilization (or even implantation) to be the criterion for determining the begining of a new human life when there is still potential for that zygote/embryo to become numerous lives?

 

My point in asking is to show that our definition of when life begins is flexible and arbitrary. Not everyone uses the critereon of "DNA unique from the parents'" to mark the beginning of life. Some mark quickening as the point when an embryo comes alive. Some people mark the capacity for consciousness as the beginning of life. Others mark birth as the beginning. Some cultures even hold that life begins at points days, weeks, or months after birth. (And yes, these cultures can be found in America.)

 

If the central question of abortion's morality revolves around "new life" then it is entirely reasonable to question when and how we define the beginning of new life. If you want to stick with science, it is important to realize that even scientific definitions of "new life" are arbitrary, as in the case of determining at what point one embryo's life becomes two embryos' lives and why (particularly in the cases of cojoined twins, who are sometimes deemed two lives in one body and sometimes one life with a body that has a few extra parts).

 

If "new life" cannot be given a concrete definition, then abortion cannot have a concrete moral value based on it.

Submitted by MechaShiva on November 3, 2009 - 3:35pm.

That a person is defined as an individual, not by their having unique DNA?  Because a minute ago, you were saying that DNA makes the person, that any object with unique human DNA should be treated like a full human being. Now you're switching.  Huh.  It's almost like you have a predetermined conclusion---whatever works to reduce women's rights!---and you fit the evidence to your conclusion.

 

I maintain that we should stick with the same definition that we use for all other situations where a woman's rights aren't in question, which is that a person is defined by having a separate body and brain, which a fetus doesn't even start to have until late in the pregnancy, and doesn't really have until it's born.  I will concede that I think the closer it gets to a person, the more protection it deserves, but certainly the primative, basically brainless fetus you get in the first trimester deserves none. 

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on November 3, 2009 - 5:49pm.

I will concede that I think the closer it gets to a person, the more protection it deserves, but certainly the primative, basically brainless fetus you get in the first trimester deserves none.

 

Maybe you could put that to music and sing it to your children after they are born?

Submitted by Anne on November 4, 2009 - 10:22pm.

Maybe you could put that to music and sing it to your children after they are born?

We are receiving reports that Anne, a reputedly anti-choice-leaning poster at the RHRealityCheck.org Web site, has just discovered that not all women romanticize the process of reproduction and motherhood. She is alleged to have written a snarky reply to a comment written by Amanda Marcotte. Ms. Marcotte stated that a first-trimester fetus is basically brainless, a relatively uncontroversial assertion backed up by medical science. Anne's reply is said not to have addressed this point, but instead to mock Ms. Marcotte for not expressing proper motherly reverence for a first-trimester fetus. We also have unconfirmed reports that Anne even presumed that Ms. Marcotte intends to have children in the future---a possibility that would further corroborate Anne's belief in Ms. Marcotte having an inherently maternal nature for no reason other than her physical sex and cisgender expression.

Submitted by ProChoiceFerret on November 4, 2009 - 11:06pm.

Um... no, I'm saying that having a distinct set of DNA indicates that the fetus gestating inside a woman's body is NOT PART OF her body. It's attached to her body, but it's not part of her body in the way that her lung or intestine is. Clearly, you are bright enough to get this, Amanda. Stop twisting my words around.  

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 4, 2009 - 11:07pm.
That the day that I'm cruel enough to suggest that another person's human rights should be stripped so that my existential crisis is calmed, is the day I can't live with myself.  My mother chose to have me.  She didn't have to---abortion was not only available, but legal.  If I thought my mother was forced to have me, I'd be crushed.  I love my mom, and wouldn't want her to suffer than kind of abuse of her basic rights, that transgression of her bodily autonomy.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on November 3, 2009 - 1:03pm.

Well, I love my mom too-the one who adopted and raised me-who I never would have met if my biological mother had had an abortion. I also don't consider myself culpable for having gestated inside my biological mother's uterus. My mother wasn't forced to have me, either. Abortion was not only available and legal-she had already had one. I will repeat again that that doesn't make her a bad person in my eyes, but it does have relevance to my own conceptions of what is right and wrong. It wasn't my choice to be concieved, but when I was, I don't feel that my biological mother had any moral right to end my life.

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 3, 2009 - 1:18pm.

Can I ask if you think you'd feel differently if your bio-Mom had NOT had that legal choice?  Obviously, I'm asking you to speculate, but I do think your response begs the question.

Submitted by Heather Corinna, Scarleteen.com on November 3, 2009 - 1:28pm.

About the possibility of having been aborted? Well...yes and no. Because of abortion's legality and the current propensity to push it as the answer to an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy, I feel that it "would have made sense" for my biological mother to have gotten an abortion. After all, this was 1982, and abortion had been legal for nine years. She had already  had one, so what's one more?

It makes much less sense for women to seek abortions in societies where it is illegal and doing so could lead to extreme physical harm/legal intervention, etc. So, in a society where abortion wasn't "the answer" for an unplanned pregnancy, I suppose the concern over possibly having been aborted wouldn't be as significant.

However, when I recount my story, my primary purpose is to try to get pro choice people who see abortion as no more significant than having one's appendix out to take a second look at their point of view. That purpose doesn't necessarily depend on how I feel about abortion's legality. Irregardless, I still feel that it takes an individual life, and  I feel that everyone should be cognizant of that fact, even if the reasons behind an abortion are "good" ones.  So, even if abortion were illegal at the time that my mother had me, I would still recount my story as a way of trying to get people to reject the idea that unplanned pregnancies are so horrible that women should go and seek out illegal abortions, that some sort of eugenics policy should be put in place, etc. The point is that unplanned pregnancy isn't necessarily a tragedy for the woman or child involved. 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 3, 2009 - 2:43pm.

"I still feel that it takes an individual life, and  I feel that everyone should be cognizant of that fact"

 

I am now cognizant of that fact. Thank you, you have done your duty.

 

I'm still going to terminate a pregnancy if I feel that is the best thing for me and that potential child, for whatever reason I deem reasonable

Submitted by CrissLCox on November 4, 2009 - 6:10pm.
You're still coming back to the idea that we should strip away women's basic human rights because you are personally unable to resolve an existential crisis.  That's your responsibility.  I promise you that no number of women forced to give birth will make you more happy or comfortable in your own skin.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on November 3, 2009 - 2:40pm.

Amanda-I am NOT in crisis over this. Believe me, I have FAR too many problems in my life to walk around being in crisis over the fact that my biological mother might have aborted me. My point in recounting that story is not to dwell on some nonexistent existential crisis, but to point out that abortion thwarts individual destiny. Some people see that as a uniquely religious POV, but I don't think one has to be religious to believe that each person has an instrinsic purpose for being here and that the world wouldn't be quite the same without each indvidual. That's not egotistical, it's appreciation for the fact that each person has the opportunity to fulfill their potential to do good unto others, etc, even if they are doing something as simple as offering a kind word to someone else on a daily basis. 

 

 

Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 3, 2009 - 2:47pm.

You're flipping out here, having a crisis because other people's rights send you into a tailspin of "what if?"  But your crisis is only provoked by other people's private choices.  The possibility that my parents might not have met---or yours---doesn't bother you.  Just that an individual woman might choose to have this baby and not that.  You start to freak out about the possibility that you could have been that baby and not this baby.  No sympathy for this baby that that baby could have prevented.

 

I don't know.  Your self-centeredness strikes me as the sort that stems from an existential crisis.  That it's provoked strictly by women's rights is interesting, but not unusual for anti-choicers.  There's something about the combination of female sexuality and questions about our own existence that really sets people off.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on November 3, 2009 - 5:52pm.
Like the anti-choice crisis, evolution really sets off the Christian right on an existential crisis.  I think that female sexuality isn't far off from the explanation as to why.  No creation, no Eve, no first sin explaining why women are second class citizens.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on November 3, 2009 - 5:53pm.

You have no idea, Amanda. The latest claptrap in woman-hating spewed by the SBC is based entirely in Genesis.

Submitted by ahunt on November 3, 2009 - 8:57pm.

Are those the ones that are rewriting the Bible to take out the 'liberal' parts that were probably added by the ancestors of commie pinkos? You know, all that forgiving the adultress and caring for the poor nonsense.

http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project

Submitted by crowepps on November 3, 2009 - 9:33pm.

But, Amanda-I'm not freaking out. Once again, you have no idea what I am like when I am truly "freaked out." Last week, I was freaked out because the school I go to decided to drop one of my accommodations, in a disgusting display of anti-disability prejudice. THEN I was freaked out. I broke down crying several times because getting this graduate degree is so, so important to me and without the accommodation, I don't know if I'm going to be able to complete it. THAT is a crisis. Good thing that I didn't have any extensive communication with the people who decided to deny the accommodation last week, for I would have had a difficult time not freaking out. Having a reasonable debate about how I feel in regard to the abortion debate does not constitute "freaking out"-it's just a debate on an issue I feel strongly about. I'm not walking around crying or lying in bed losing sleep over it-I'll save that for worrying about how I'm going to complete my degree.

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 4, 2009 - 2:26am.

The creationism vs. evolution debate is a lot more complicated than a simple clash of religious vs. secular ideologies, but that aside, the Adam and Eve story and others in the Bible only undercut women's rights if they are employed for the purposes of doing so. There are lots of instances of strong, independent women in the Bible, such as Esther, Mary and Mary Magdalene, along with several new Testament stories of Jesus paying particular attention to women in a way that was not common in his day. Even Timothy's statement, "wives, submit to your husbands" is balanced by, "husbands, treat your wives as Christ treated the church." Since Christ died, ie, submitted himself, to the church, that passage implies an equal partnership, not one in which the woman is a "second class citizen." So, the creation vs. evolution debate is a moot point in regard to women's rights when one considers more current interpretations of the Biblical text.

 

Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 4, 2009 - 2:39am.

It actually says "wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord" and "husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church." It also specifically says that "the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church." If that's your definition of "equal partnership," I think you may need to consult a dictionary.

Submitted by dubiouslygreat on November 4, 2009 - 3:03pm.

You might want to go to that link about de-liberalizing the Bible. The interpretations you cite are EXACTLY the type of thing they feel has been slipping in by liberals and which they want to remove.

Submitted by crowepps on November 4, 2009 - 6:06pm.

First, the statement you quote about wives submitting themselves to their husbands isn't in "Timothy."  It's in Paul's letter to the Colossians 3:17-19.

Second, drawing such broad conclusions from any of Paul's letters is dangerous.  He was a very situational writer who could tell women in one church to be quiet and ask their husbands to explain what they didn't understand, and tell another to direct their questions to his friend and fellow apostle Phoebe, who was the leader of her congregation and was carrying Paul's letter to Rome.  The passage you quote in Colossians is a possible indicator of later interpolation by a Pauline follower who was concerned about attracting too much Roman attention.

Third, creationism v. evolution is not a complex debate.  Creationism is scientifically inaccurate and religiously literalist.  Evolution is scientifically correct and says nothing about religion.  The former has no business in a public school classroom, as it is not scientific, while the latter has no business in a Sunday School, as it is not religious.  

Finally, if my mother had aborted me, or a potential sibling, it would have been to save her own life.  She nearly died having me, and her own doctor explicitly told her not to push her luck.  Unlike the heroines of so many movies of the week, she chose to put her own life above that of a potential fetus.  Besides, if I'd been aborted, how could I possibly have any feelings or thoughts on the matter unless my soul had somehow been incarnated in another fetus that came to term and somehow came to learn of my mother's predicament?

 

 

Submitted by Ellid on November 4, 2009 - 11:12pm.

You know, I had a pretty lousy childhood too, and I've got to say, if as you state you actually experienced it yourself, your insistence that abortion be made illegal so that women will be forced to give birth to a million unwanted children who will ALSO have to endure rotten childhoods doesn't meet my definition of "plain old reason". If your 'biological mother' "died a few months after you were born" did you then live somewhere else, possibly in an entirely different and 'wholesome' environment?

 

Except, of course, that someone in that new environment apparently shared this information about your 'biological mother' for some bizarre reasons of their own. I certainly cannot imagine any adult having a good reason to inform a child of the adult's speculation that the child was "likely to be aborted". Obviously, the child WASN'T, so where does the 'likely' come from? From the fact that the mother was abused and used drugs leading to the conclusion that the mother was a 'bad person' and bad people are the ones who are 'likely' to get abortions?

 

Frankly, I can't imagine telling an ADULT that information about biological origins, since there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever to do so.

Submitted by crowepps on November 3, 2009 - 1:24pm.

Crowepps-you should have read what I wrote more carefully-I wrote that my bio-mother's  mom (my biological grandmother) died a few months after I was born. 

 

 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 3, 2009 - 1:46pm.

Sorry, that wasn't clear. But why are you talking about your 'bio-mom'? Who told you all that vile drek about your grandmother? What possible purpose could they have had for telling you all that?

Submitted by crowepps on November 3, 2009 - 2:10pm.

My biological father told me this about a year and a half ago when I met him. I asked him about my biological mother's life around the time that I was concieved. I think his purpose was to answer that question.

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 4, 2009 - 1:58am.

My mom was an eighteen year old high school dropout stuck with an abusive boyfriend, no job, and no license. I go into all the reasons that she was, but let's just say everyone thought he was the cat's meow and she didn't exactly have anywhere to go. Oh, and she was living among drug dealers. Sense would say my mother /should/ have aborted me. Those were not good circumstances for bringing a child into the world. Maybe she could have clawed her way out of that situation and had another child at a later date. One that wasn't being born into a family where all of her siblings had been the victims of abuse and poverty.

I am not at all bothered by the fact that my mother could have (and probably should have) aborted me. I wouldn't know the difference if she had, and frankly there are more important things in the world to work myself up over than pointless hypotheticals.

So take your contrived existential quandry and stuff it. The point of this article is not that miscarriages are equal to abortions, but that all hypotheticals of this kind are essentially exercises in vanity that serve only to make us feel special because we happen to exist *against the odds!* Reality has already happened and it's not going to change because you're twisting yourself in knots about the past. Maybe focus on something that matters, like real women being told that their hypothetical children are more important than they are.

Submitted by cola82 on November 3, 2009 - 1:56pm.

Sorry, Cola, I'm NOT going to stuff it, but since you think I should, perhaps you should set a good example.  

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 3, 2009 - 1:56pm.

You're not interested in what I said! Only your bad childhood matters and everyone else can be dismissed on the thinnest of pretexts. Well, two can play that game.

I'm rubber and your glue. You're a troll and everyone should ignore you.

Submitted by cola82 on November 3, 2009 - 2:01pm.

Ooh, are we playing Childhood Trauma Show-And-Tell? 'Cause, it's funny actually, my family background of abuse, drinking, and drugging is one of the biggest reasons why I am pro-choice. A young woman in an ugly situation has way more options for getting out if she doesn't have little kids to support.

 

It is a simple, unsentimental fact that my mom's life would have been *immeasurably* improved had she aborted me when she became pregnant as a teenager. In a society where conservatism gives such lip service to the beauty of childbearing, yet condemns the unforgivable sins of single motherhood, working motherhood, and social assistance for poor mothers, the life prospects for an uneducated, unskilled, pregnant teenager with an abusive boyfriend are *not*appealing. They look more or less as follows:

  1. Stick with the abusive, addicted layabout for the rent money that's sometimes left over, if he's working at the time, after he's done buying beer... so your soon-to-be baby has a roof over her head?
  2. Leave him, and go on welfare, so the rent doesn't come with a broken nose and tufts of your hair on the floor where he grabbed you in a rage and drove your face into the dining room table... and your soon-to-be baby has a roof over her head?
  3. Or have an abortion, thank God that you live in a free nation where your actual real existing born life matters, and with luck and a little grace, start over again at building a sane and stable life into which you'll bring children when the time is right?

In her shoes, I would've aborted, without hesitation. And I wouldn't blame my mother for having done it... not that a person who never existed has the capacity for blame or regret or anything else, as Amanda so rightly points out.

Submitted by ClinicEscort on November 3, 2009 - 2:21pm.

I second that, Clinic Escort!  I was not a planned child.  My father and mother got married in their early twenties because that's what you did when you got knocked up and you were from conservative families.  I spent a large portion of my life struggling with the idea that the emotional abuse and torment that my parents inflicted upon one another (and to some extent my siblings and myself) was my fault -- we would not have been a family if it hadn't been for my conception.  I would not dream of begruding someone the right to do something different.  Even at this point, married for two years in a healthy and stable relationship, I do not know that I would carry a pregnancy to term, and I want that control over my reproduction.

 

Michelle Bell

http://atheistmidwife.wordpress.com

http://gaytheist.org

Submitted by MerrieMelodyxx, Self-Employed on November 3, 2009 - 2:56pm.

Just so we're clear, I had a very pleasant and stable home life as a child, despite the unfortunate circumstances surrounding my conception and nine month gestation.So, I'm not swapping "childhood misery" tales with anyone. (Now, that doesn't mean that I didn't have bad experiences outside of my home, so I'm not saying that my childhood was idyllic, either. I'm not going to go into the severe abuse I suffered at schvool, church, and other public places, but in terms of home life, it was a very good situation. I had two parents who were together, a parent with a steady and solid income, and a dedicated mom who put her heart and soul into raising me and my brother. I only wish that every child could have the kind of home life that I had. My parents also advocated like crazy for me when the school system discriminated against me because I had learning disabilities.)

I also think that my story just shows the difference between getting pregnant in the sixties or even the early seventies and getting pregnant in the eighties, nineties, and today-my biological mother was not shelved in some home for nine months and she wasn't forced to keep me, either. So, stories of traumatic childhoods don't sway me toward support for abortion because I see them as indicating the need for something else, such as support for single mothers, continued work against domestic violence, quality adoption options, and other measures to make the world a better place to be.

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 4, 2009 - 2:09am.

Some of us who also had a mother (in my case, both parents) with very rough circumstances, or with painful childhoods because of the circumstances of our birth/parentage still feel as Amanda does, though.  I don't think it's fair to suggest that Amanda only feels the way she does because of the unique circumstances of her birth.

 

My biggest issue with this -- and yes, I wish the law and my mother's circumstances had been such that she could EITHER have legally accessed contraception or abortion: neither were available to her legally given the time -- is that it seems to assume that the only way any of us would be here is if we had the exact parents and birth we did.  When, in fact, that's just not something we can know.  When I consider that I do wish my mother had been able to terminate her pregnancy with me, I don't really go to an "But I wouldn't be here," place, because my presumption is that if I was supposed to be here, I'd be here by some circumstance or another, not only the one I'm here this time via.

Submitted by Heather Corinna, Scarleteen.com on November 3, 2009 - 12:53pm.

Lots of people wouldn't mind a bit if they had been aborted, especially those who had a rotten childhood in a dysfunctional family, as the whole phenomena of depression and suicide attest.

And I'm also sure sick of the response when that's pointed out - "Well, anybody who feels THAT Way must be mentally unhealthy and need therapy!" When life is a burden, as it all too often is, being labeled 'mentally unhealthy' really doesn't make a person feel a whole lot more reconciled to having to struggle on with it.

Submitted by crowepps on November 3, 2009 - 12:55pm.

This exercise of should-she-have or should-she-not-have had an abortion is really pointless. I had a friend who said she was alive because her mom aborted a pregnancy not long before she was conceived. And if you really want to talk about all the potentials that have been "lost" through abortion, then why not ask about all the potentials not conceived for a variety of reasons. If my dad had died in Vietnam, I wouldn't be alive. If my parents had married later, I wouldn't be alive. If my parents had met earlier, I might have more brothers or maybe sisters. As it happens, I have one brother, four cousins on my mom's side and six on my dad's. I could have more or less, depending on life circumstances. The reason *this* question isn't viewed as belonging only to philosophy majors is because abortion is seen as illegitimate to others. Sure, I could have been aborted, but there are several other circumstances that could mean I would never have been born (and plenty more where I could have died after birth).

The question also attempts to legitimize some reasons women have abortions and hold judgment over the other reasons. Poor women have legitimate reasons while middle class women perhaps not so much. It's pointless, stupid, and dangerous.

Submitted by Carolyn Marie Fugit on November 3, 2009 - 2:48pm.

Suppose I had two embryos in test tubes from an infertility treatment. For my own reasons, I decide to give one to a mother and another to discard. The one I gave to the mother grew up to a be a doctor. What about the one I discarded? Should I be "condemned" for flushing down the biohazard bin another "potential doctor"? Did I "deny the world" this would-be doctor's skill? Or lawyer, or Peace Corp, or whatever else we can imagine?

At what point to we get to call this fantasizing of what would have been just that - fantasizing?

Submitted by Harry834 on November 3, 2009 - 4:42pm.

Beacuse of the idea that we could be ditching another doctor/lawyer/person with kind words/etc.?

Must we demand that what happens in a woman's uterus - at the cellular level - happen in a way so that the zygote gestates? Even if the woman doesn't want it?

 

Submitted by Harry834 on November 3, 2009 - 4:46pm.

The answer to the hypothetical question, what if my mother had aborted me? is, I'd figure she probably had a pretty damn good reason, and I'd respect that. (As you say, not that I'd ever have known anyway.)

My mother told me that she did have an abortion in her 20s,during the 1940s when it was still illegal (and I was yet to be born). It was apparently a gruesome, back-alley abortion, but she doesn't regret it, and I never think about the possible half-sister or brother I might have had. It's moot.

What the experience did do was convince her the procedure should be safe and legal. When I was a teenager, she always told me that if I ever had an accidental pregnancy and needed an abortion, she'd stand by me every step of the way. I appreciated that (and never did get pregnant anyway).

Submitted by mirandasp on November 3, 2009 - 6:04pm.

I listened to a local NPR interview with those "Personhood Nevada" people and their opponents. Had I not been driving, I might have called in.

Legally defining a constitutionally protected "person" as of the "moment of conception," while perhaps providing ethical dilettantes with a nice self-reflecting narcissistic glow, is simply untenable.

See http://bgladd.blogspot.com/2008/04/diploid-dave-et-al.html

I continue to be amazed at the incoherence surrounding this debate -- on both sides.

Submitted by BobbyG, Independent on November 3, 2009 - 7:35pm.

I'm sorry, the born-alive "myth"? http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/florida.abortion/

Submitted by Scarlett on November 3, 2009 - 8:11pm.

This was discussed in a separate thread and if you follow the links there you will see the coroner said the cause of death was "extreme prematurity" - in other words fetus at nonviable stage of development.

Submitted by crowepps on November 4, 2009 - 6:12pm.

Crowepps-

Honestly, your dishonesty makes me sick. It is true that the coroner said that the infant's death was caused by "extreme prematurity," because the infant was 23 weeks old when it was accidentally born at an abortion clinic. Infants that young ARE viable if they are given appropriate care, but they are not if such care isn't provided. Infants that young MUST be given care at a neonatal intensive care unit or they will die of extreme prematurity. The people in attendance when the child was born did not call 911 or do anything to help the baby-thus, it's death due to "extreme prematurity." 

 

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 6, 2009 - 3:48am.

While I agree with you that in a neonatal intensive care unit the fetus would have had a 20% to 35% chance of survival, and I also agree with you that these people did not follow medical protocols in any way whatsoever, should have done a lot more than they did, and should not be practicing any kind of medicine, it's equally dishonest of ProLifers to tout this case as typical abortion clinic practice. Using that rationale, Michelle Kehoe is a 'typical mother'.

http://www.wcfcourier.com/news/local/article_34ea9bf6-c4a4-11de-b294-001...

Submitted by crowepps on November 6, 2009 - 2:07pm.

I remember obsessing about this very thing when I was around twelve or thirteen. What if my parents had changed positions during sex - I'd never have been conceived. What if my parents had started fooling around five minutes earlier - perhaps I'd never have been conceived. What if my mom had gotten a leg cramp during sex on the night of my conception - it might have interrupted things and my dad might have come a couple of minutes later. And then, there'd be no me. Maybe they would have had a son. Or a daughter who looked sort of like me.  

Yeah, I thought about this kind of thing when I was young. Pondering "what ifs?" and being completely self-involved and fascinated by the mere fact of one's existence is fairly common for kids. Not a very intelligent thing to base public health policy on, and not a very firm basis to deny women bodily autonomy. And I was sort of repulsed and fascinated by the obvious fact that my parents "did it" at least three times. This kind of fascination with other people's sex lives is normal for children and teenagers, but rather unseemly in adults. Yet all too common. 

Fact of the matter is, if I'd never been born, I wouldn't know the difference. No more a tragedy than that my two brothers were born as who they are when I could have had two completely different siblings if only the sex act that resulted in their conception had been a bit different. Oh, how I mourn those non-existent siblings! Maybe they would have been taller. Or given me more nieces and nephews. Or had made more attractive friends to introduce me to. Or one of them would have bought me a winning lottery ticket. Cruel fate. 

Submitted by kvsm on November 4, 2009 - 1:02am.

Oh, well, guess I'm a liberal, then. As to "the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church," I still think that there is probably a concurrent verse that implies equality for male and female in the marital (and any other) relationship, although I don't have time to go and look it up right now. I suggest that anyone seeking to determine which of us is right in regard to this issue go and read those passages/the biblical book in which they are written themselves.
"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on November 4, 2009 - 7:34pm.