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What Now? Colorado Groups Seek "Personhood" For Cells

Joseph Boven's picture

A version of the anti-abortion initiative soundly defeated by Colorado voters in 2008 is making its way to the 2010 ballot, this time reworked as an “egg-as-a-person” initiative.

This new version would move the legal definition of a person further back into the reproductive cycle, granting cells the full spectrum of citizen rights. Opposition groups, including Colorado genetic and fertilization researchers, say the law would have spiraling consequences, that it would put women at risk and freeze current work in medicine and reproduction.

zygote

Colorado Right to Life and Personhood USA, the groups behind proposed Initiative 25, are undeterred by the fact that Coloradans voted against the test-run amendment last year by a margin of three to one. The new amendment is even farther reaching, moving the initial marker for the beginning of life from “fertilization” to “the beginning of the biological development of a human being.”

Personhood Colorado Director and the initiative proponent Gualberto Garcia Jones told The Colorado Independent that the change was made “to be more comprehensive in our definition of a person” and was not done to make it more appealing to voters.

“It’s intended to account for human beings who may be created through asexual reproduction in laboratories and used as raw material for research, organs, or stem cells. Fertilization would not have properly applied to asexually reproduced humans, but even asexually reproduced human beings have a definite biological beginning,” Jones explained.

“Over half-a-million Coloradans voted for the personhood initiative in 2008,” Jones said in a press conference announcing the campaign. “Their votes acknowledging the God-given right to life of the pre-born revolutionizes the pro-life movement and encourage us toward victory. ”

Science stoppage

Johnathan Van Blerkom, professor of molecular, cellular and developmental biology at the University of Colorado in Boulder, said if the personhood initiative were passed and upheld, it would have negative consequences for those not only involved in embryonic stem cell research but also for individuals looking to participate in in-vitro fertilization programs.

“To begin with [embryonic] stem cell research would stop,” Van Blerkom said. “There would be no research in genetics in the causes of the origins congenital diseases that occur in humans, how to fix them, how to protect them early.”

“You would find in this state, myself included, that embryo research would freeze. If there were criminal penalties or you were lumped together with abortionists for looking at embryos that are discarded because they are abnormal and you want to know why they are abnormal … no one is going to do it.”

Van Blerkom who works at a fertilization clinic as well, said that in-vitro fertilization would likely end in the state. He explained that the very process of fertilization can kill the embryo if more than one sperm gets into the egg. He said legal liability would loom over all procedures.

“It’s criminal liability. So would any program want to freeze an embryo in the state of Colorado? If the embryos die, as they frequently do when they are thawed, is that your responsibility? Is it an act of God? An act of science?”

Women’s rights

Monica McCafferty, media relations specialist for Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, said the slightly modified language does nothing to protect the rights and safety of mothers.

“The new initiative has the same goal [as Amendment 48], to ban all abortion even in the cases of rape, incest, or when the life of the woman is in danger.”

McCafferty said that the language is vague and misleading but the ramifications are clear. “This would have huge implications.”

The legislation would end women’s right to choose in Colorado but would also hamper their ability to take many forms of birth control. McCafferty said the law would create major government intrusions into private lives.

“Coloradans have said time and again that they don’t want government or the courts in their lives when it comes making these personal private decisions.”

Jones frankly agreed. He said the goal of the amendment was to provide a child in the womb with due process and equality of justice.

“If passed, the Personhood Amendment would regain the state’s right to extend protections broader than those granted by the U.S. Constitution, and it would help transform our current decadent culture which currently values a person’s utility instead of their innate worth as a human being.”

But Jones didn’t agree that the language was vague.

“We have proposed a very simple, level-headed definition of what a person is. Namely, a person is a human being from the very beginning of his or her biological development.”

During the 2008 debate over the personhood initiative, Jessica Berg, professor of law and bioethics at Case Western Reserve University, told NPR that fertilized eggs in fertility clinics might need to be counted on the census and that pregnant women presumably could use the high-occupancy traffic lanes. There are absurdities that grow out of this kind of thinking, she said.

“If you don’t know you’re pregnant and you drink or do something dangerous — or you do something problematic very early on, and you’re in Colorado or even passing through Colorado — have you committed child abuse and endangerment?”

Power politics

Asked why voters did not support the initiative in the past Jones told The Colorado Independent that the initiative fell victim to power politics.

“We realize that there are very large political and corporate interests that will do everything in their power to twist this simple proposition into ludicrous scenarios. We’ll be more aggressive this time around in addressing those scare tactics.”

He said that with groups such as Planned Parenthood heading up a coalition of groups to oppose the initiative — last year’s coalition was called Protect Families, Protect Choices — the “pro-abortionists have almost unlimited funds.”

“You see, killing babies pays. Saving babies doesn’t.”

Jones said Planned Parenthood had taken in more than $1 billion in 2008.

RH Reality Check recently reported, however, that anti-abortion rights groups are not hurting for funds.

Wendy Norris, former editor for The Colorado Independent, wrote that personhood groups have brought in almost $58 million in donations. The American Life League, an organization where Jones recently served as legislative director, has brought in more than $35 million since 2003.

National drive

Emilie Ailts, executive director of Denver-based NARAL Pro-Choice Colorado, said that the initiatives are part of a nationwide attempt to advance personhood legislation. She said that Personhood USA initially had hoped to introduce legislation in 29 states but that Personhood USA now seems ready to mount grassroots efforts in only nine states.

Aits said that the initiative would change the Colorado Constitution in 20,000 different places.

“People can not even prognosticate how once it was fully implemented how it would affect peoples lives. It would impact so many laws.” She said it would impact not only fertilization and stem cell research but also access to many forms of birth control in the state.

NARAL, like Planned Parenthood and the Republican Majority for Choice banded together with the Colorado Bar Association and 90 other groups, many which do not normally deal with reproductive issues, to create Protect Families, Protect Choices, Aits said. Like last year, she expects the same groups to oppose the measure should it make its way onto the ballot.

“Everyone saw this as something so draconian in 2008 that it would have very negative impacts on the lives of women and their families in the state of Colorado.”

McCafferty said that while Protect Families, Protect Choices worked diligently to oppose last years personhood initiative, it was the Colorado voters who made the decision to reject the amendment.

Jones said he is confident his measure will pass.

“With so much money comes a lot of influence, earned and bought media, and friends in high places. Against this, personhood only has one thing, the truth. The amazing thing is that it is only a matter of time before we prevail.”


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Hi Joseph,

 

You may want to sit down for this. We have the lab results. We had them check and double check. We examined you very closely, but there's no getting around it.

 

All the lab techs found were cells.

 

I know, I know. We were stunned too. I'm sorry Joseph, but you're not a person. All you are are cells. A lot of cells mind you, but we don't give person hood to cells. So if you'll step into this incinerator over here it would make this very simple.

 

Stop crying, I know that those are just cells too. Into the chamber now. Very good.

 

Say goodbye!

Submitted by BrianH on October 29, 2009 - 11:06am.

I suppose you think a pebble and a mountain are not meaningfully different, either.

Submitted by ProChoiceFerret on October 29, 2009 - 12:24pm.

I see.

 

So you subscribe to the "more cells equals more important" theory of personhood? 

Submitted by BrianH on October 29, 2009 - 1:59pm.

Well baldly, yeah. For example, the walking bag of cells that is an actual person is more "important" than a single-celled potential person.

Submitted by ahunt on October 29, 2009 - 2:18pm.

So you subscribe to the "more cells equals more important" theory of personhood?

I subscribe to the theory that people who want to comment on complex and controversial topics like reproductive health, bodily autonomy and the legality of abortion will fully engage their brains and not make deliberately obtuse arguments. But alas, it has once again been disproven.

Submitted by ProChoiceFerret on October 29, 2009 - 2:37pm.

So, Joseph, does that mean that every time I get a blood test I am an accessory to murder?  There are cells in that.

Submitted by DrDredd on October 29, 2009 - 4:36pm.

Don't forget that if you live in Colorado, you'll be committing murder EVERY TIME you ejaculate.  Because - surprise - an egg inside a woman is not the only "biological beginning of a human," according to this law sperm must also be considered as such. Masturbation?  Killing millions.  Using a condom, a vasectomy or "pull out?"  Murder. And even if you fertilize one egg, what about the millions of other sperm that die?  You are an evil, evil killer.

Submitted by dcardona on November 1, 2009 - 8:40pm.

wait until they figure out they outlawed all cancer treatments, if you can't kill cell then you can't kill cancer cells.

Submitted by rorschachalive, Watchmen on October 29, 2009 - 1:14pm.

“Over half-a-million Coloradans voted for the personhood initiative in 2008,” Jones said in a press conference announcing the campaign. “Their votes acknowledging the God-given right to life of the pre-born revolutionizes the pro-life movement and encourage us toward victory. ”

Too bad there were 1,605,978 voters who disagreed, huh? See, that's the problem with this 'let's vote on it and see what Americans want' meme -- when the initiative is defeated it's whack-a-mole -- the prolifers just come back in the NEXT election with something very similar. Even thought they've never actually gotten one passed in actual LAW, their publicity of the efforts to do so keeps those contributions rolling in!

Submitted by crowepps on October 29, 2009 - 3:53pm.

A version of the anti-abortion initiative soundly defeated by Colorado voters in 2008 is making its way to the 2010 ballot, this time reworked as an “egg-as-a-person” initiative.

 

For any of you who didn't get a chance to read my responses to the last six or seven articles RHReality Check has published about various 'personhood bills' allow me to recap what I think are the salient points.

 

1)  This is the most important thing!  These bills never should become law, they never will become law and they never can become law.  In keeping with their long record of counterproductive effort, conservatives within the Pro-Life movement have again overplayed their hand with the effect of whipping up frenzy on the 'Choice' side and raising money for Planned Parenthood.  With enemies like this you don't need friends! 

 

2) The hierarchy of my Catholic Church, which is more than capable of making political blunders, was on the right side of this debate in Colorado and it was on the right side of this debate in North Dakota.  I'm praying that all the bishops in all the states that takes this issue up will exercise sound judgment and oppose passage.

 

3) The temptation on both sides to imagine scary scenarios and to accuse their opponents of being fools or devils makes it difficult for people to take their opponents' passion seriously or get into productive discussions about these very important issues.  Not to worry!  I'm going to keep inviting people to engage in productive, respectful conversations.

 

Looking forward to your comments ahunt (how could we have this discussion without you) and crowepps and colleen.  I hope we'll be hearing from new people too. 

 

Let me start the ball rolling by asking you whether it does any good to use a phrase like 'egg as person'.  It's almost as if you're unwilling to draw a distinction between an unfertilized ovum and a fertilized ovum.  I've pointed this out before but I think it's worth contemplating how much rarer fertilized eggs are than unfertilized eggs.  There are 500,000 living zygotes and blastocysts in our country.  There are 7,500,000,000,000 (7.5 trillion) unfertilized eggs.

 

Even a Pro-Life zealot such as myself can see how absurd and unworkable it would be to treat the 7.5 trillion as if they were human beings.  Asking people to treat the 500,000 with the respect that all of us deserve is a perfectly reasonable request.  When you say "egg-as-person" you drum up absurd ideas.  To say "zygote-as-person" is to engage people around the real issues. 

 

None of us have ever been an (unfertilized) egg.  None of us have ever been a sperm.  But we've all been zygotes and I think we ought to be capable of a little compassion for the people who are zygotes now.  They're the artists, innovators and heroes of the future (they're also the criminals, prostitutes and junkies of the future -- but, hey, the goal is to respect all human life, even lives that are hard to respect.)

 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 29, 2009 - 5:03pm.

Let me start the ball rolling by asking you whether it does any good to use a phrase like 'egg as person'. It's almost as if you're unwilling to draw a distinction between an unfertilized ovum and a fertilized ovum. I've pointed this out before but I think it's worth contemplating how much rarer fertilized eggs are than unfertilized eggs. There are 500,000 living zygotes and blastocysts in our country. There are 7,500,000,000,000 (7.5 trillion) unfertilized eggs.

Are you talking right at this moment? Where do you come up with these numbers? Do you just multiply 'women in (supposed) fertile years' times X divided by months? Divide number of pregnancies by days? How does inventing numbers in this manner help facilitate reasonable discussion?

Even a Pro-Life zealot such as myself can see how absurd and unworkable it would be to treat the 7.5 trillion as if they were human beings. Asking people to treat the 500,000 with the respect that all of us deserve is a perfectly reasonable request. When you say "egg-as-person" you drum up absurd ideas. To say "zygote-as-person" is to engage people around the real issues.

At the present state of medical knowledge, outside of a petri disk there's no way to distinguish the zygotes from the unfertilized eggs, or for that matter the zygotes which have potentially 'human' DNA from those whose DNA is so flawed as to never be capable of qualifying.

None of us have ever been an (unfertilized) egg. None of us have ever been a sperm. But we've all been zygotes

As I understand the process, all of us have at one point 'been an unfertilized egg', and everyone except Christ himself was 'a sperm'. Certainly insisting that every zygote is a 'person' make it absolutely logical to expand the definition so that 'we've all been eggs' or 'we've all been sperm' and I guess to take this passion for germ cells to its logical end next we have to insist that ALL of them be given every chance to combine and develop. The rallying call is obvious - "Chastity is Anti-Life"!

Submitted by crowepps on October 29, 2009 - 6:20pm.

Certainly insisting that every zygote is a 'person' makes it absolutely logical to expand the definition so that 'we've all been eggs' or 'we've all been sperm' and I guess to take this passion for germ cells to its logical end next we have to insist that ALL of them be given every chance to combine and develop.

 

crowepps,

 

Reductio ad absurdum.

 

Why is it that, to me, it's plainly obvious that a developing zygote is a living human body and yet you claim to have trouble noticing a significant dividing line between zygotes on the one hand and sperm and eggs on the other?

 

Let's turn it around.  Let's say some Pro-Lifer (not me, obviously, I try hard to avoid making stupid arguments) said to you, "You don't have any doubt that an infant is a person, do you?  Insisting that every infant is a 'person' makes it absolutely logical to expand the definition to include fetuses."  You would no doubt point out that something very significant happens between the time we're fetuses and the time we're infants and that very significant event is birth.  It's a pretty clear dividing line.

 

Well, conception is a pretty clear dividing line too.  There's no danger that we'll confuse zygotes with unfertilized ova just as there's no danger that we'll confuse an infant and a fetus.

 

The difference is that conception is a much more important dividing line than birth is.  Anyone can see that the body of an infant is the same body that was a fetus, but we know that the body of a zygote ISN'T the same body as an unfertilized egg or a sperm.  Until conception there's no human body.  After conception that one body develops through all the phases of human life. 

 

When you complete the realization that a zbef is a living human body you can't help but conclude that that body deserves to be treated with care.  If you can get yourself to deny that a zbef is a living human body then you can justify any sort of mistreatment.

 

You'll say, "The only people who have to exert care to sustain the lives of zbef's are women.  Men don't have to do anything!"  That is, of course, exactly true -- I just can't see why I should go from "zbef's are people who have to rely upon a woman's care" to "because zbef's have to rely upon a woman's care they aren't people."

 

Are you talking right at this moment? Where do you come up with these numbers?

 

In any year there are 6 million pregnancies -- 600,000 end in spontaneous abortion, 1.2 million end in procured abortion and 4.2 million survive to birth.  For there to be 6 million pregnancies there need to be 12 million blastocysts -- since at least 50% fail to implant.  Some people say that the failure rate can be as high as 80%.  If you want to use that number you need 30 million blastocysts to produce 6 million pregnancies.

 

We're only in the zygote/blastocyst phase of development for two weeks, which is 3.836% of the year -- so only 3.836% of the 12 million blastocysts that are formed this year are around at any one time.  3.836% x 12 million = 460,273.  I rounded up to 500,000.

 

I often reflect on that 500,000 number when I want to contemplate how precious life is. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 29, 2009 - 8:04pm.

The difference is that conception is a much more important dividing line than birth is.

That has got to be the silliest thing I've ever seen you say. After a zygote has been formed a woman has a less than 50-50 chance of anything further happening at all. After birth there's an actual BABY. I'm getting the impression that your insistence on moving 'valuing life' as close as it's possible to get to the theoretical is because your contemplation is more about how precious YOU are than because of any intrinsic value to life itself.

Submitted by crowepps on October 29, 2009 - 8:17pm.

your contemplation is more about how precious YOU are than because of any intrinsic value to life itself.

 

crowepps,

 

You're right in thinking that this is about how precious I am.  It's also about how precious you are.  The preciousness I see in myself and in others would be occluded if I denied the intrinsic value of life.  It's really just two sides to the same coin.

 

I value you, crowepps, because you're sharp and you're fast and you're passionate -- but I also know that even if you lacked these engaging qualities you would be valuable simply for being alive.  No matter how much you adorn yourself with attractive features the very, very best thing about you is the fact that you're alive.

 

Some people think that the test of faith is a belief in the existence of God.  I believe that the test of faith is a belief in the existence of other human beings.  I'm constantly nurturing that faith because it would be very easy to lose it.  The moment I stop believing that there are other precious people out there is the moment I lose my faith in the intrinsic value of life. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 29, 2009 - 9:13pm.

That's nice, Paul, but a little anthropocentric for me. I don't see why, for instance, humans have more intrinsic worth than, say, cats. Seriously, I don't. Can you even give any reason for think humans are more intrinsically worthy than other animals other than that you really, really like humans?

 

I'm not mocking, seriously. I'm just...not seeing it. I just am not seeing why a human zygote has more worth than a feline (for example) zygote just by virtue of the fact that its DNA happens to be human. I can value your life and my life and the life of a random Palestinian person or Latvian person or whatever. We're here, we can think, love and be loved, we can suffer and hurt and so on and so forth. A zygote can't do any of that. It's just a microscopic organism that happens to have DNA.

 

This is just such a fundamental disconnect, and it's why this kind of legislation makes no sense to me. You seem to be of the view that having human DNA automatically confers superior value; I just can't agree on that one.

Submitted by Emma on October 29, 2009 - 10:15pm.

That's nice, Paul, but a little anthropocentric for me.

 

Emma,

 

I know you're not mocking or joking, and I appreciate your willingness to speak openly and honestly.

 

I suppose I've got two responses to you.  One is the religious response, and you can read my PLCC column of October 4 if you're interested in looking at that angle.  

 

The other response is the practical response.  Please appreciate that I'm very much in support of the humane treatment of animals and in environmental protection.  People who have taken up those causes are doing good work.  I do think, however, that we as a species have a special responsibility to get our own house in order and to improve our human-to-human relations.  Human-to-animal relations and human-to-plant relations obviously count for something but I honestly don't think the mistreatment of cats is as pressing a concern as the mistreatment of humans -- particularly the very young.

 

We all have our calling, though, so I will repeat that I don't mean to disparage the other concerns.

 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 30, 2009 - 9:14am.

I have to fall into bed in the next few minutes - Ambien = tired Emma. :)

 

I've bookmarked the link you sent me and will have a proper look at it tomorrow.

 

Thanks for being willing to to discuss things, Paul.

Submitted by Emma on October 30, 2009 - 12:03pm.

Zygotes don't possess any subjectivity. They have about as much subjectivity as my desk. I still don't see them as being intrinsically and cosmically significant just because they have human DNA. The idea that humans are the centre of the earth is essentially a religious one, I think, and I can't get behind that.

 

The bottom line, though, really, is that a zygote's humanity is less important than the humanity of the woman in whose body it resides. It is still fundamentally unjust for women to be required to gestate an unwanted pregnancy. Seeing zygotes as people doesn't require any effort on your part. It's all very well to insist that zygotes are people whose lives are really, really important when those affected will only be other people. Aside from the fact that I disagree philosophically, your beliefs can only lead to injustice. Requiring sacrifice only from other people is unjust and unacceptable.

 

In other words, I'm unconvinced, and honestly, the chances of my being converted to your viewpoint are smaller than a human zygote.

 

ETA: This comment is horrifically written and I'm really dissatisfied with how I've expressed what I'm trying to say. Probably best to disregard.

Submitted by Emma on October 31, 2009 - 10:16pm.

Zygotes don't possess any subjectivity.

 

Emma,

 

Zygotes don't possess any consciousness, or will, or intelligence, or sensation or emotion.  They do, however, have interests and it is in the interests of zygotes to live and to develop.  

 

It is possible for the rest of us to take a zygote's interests into consideration when we decide what we will do and it is also possible to disregard her/his interests and behave as if s/he were nothing more than 'medical waste'.  When we legitimize the interests of a zygote we realize that her/his mother has a definite responsibility to support her/his care -- but the mother isn't the only one with responsibilities.  The rest of us have a responsibility as well to protect a zygote's health and safety as s/he develops.  

 

That's why I'm a big supporter of universal health care.  Universal health care which includes comprehensive prenatal care is good for the very young and the better job we do of implementing it the more we will lower the abortion rate.  Another thing we can do is to pass laws that will compel fathers to support the care of their unborn children.  This will also serve to protect the interests of the very young.

 

I still don't see [zygotes] as being intrinsically and cosmically significant just because they have human DNA.

 

I agree with you! My hemorrhoids have human DNA and I think we all understand that they have no 'right to life'. My reason for thinking that a zygote is intrinsically valuable is that a zygote is a living human body -- and living human bodies are significant.

 

The idea that humans are the centre of the earth is essentially a religious one, I think, and I can't get behind that.

 

You do understand, I hope, that we as a society are going to have to come to some understanding about the value of human life whether we refer to religious ideas or come up with some other way of making that determination.  The question of the value of human life doesn't go away when you unburden yourself of religious dogma.  

 

a zygote's humanity is less important than the humanity of the woman in whose body it resides.

 

We both understand, don't we, that every woman was, at one point in her life, a zygote.  I'm honestly curious about your thinking, Emma -- what do you suppose happened along her development from zygote to biologically mature woman that enhanced her humanity? 

 

It is still fundamentally unjust for women to be required to gestate an unwanted pregnancy.

 

I'd go further than you, Emma.  I think it's fundamentally unjust for a woman to commence an unwanted pregnancy.  I'm all for eliminating unwanted pregnancies and unwanted conceptions.  In fact, I think I'm more serious about this issue than you are because, from your point of view, an unwanted pregnancy can be remedied by abortion.

 

For you, and unwanted pregnancy is an annoying nuisance.  For me it's a precursor to an unwanted birth -- and unwanted births take their toll on everyone. 

 

Requiring sacrifice only from other people is unjust and unacceptable.

 

Well, Emma, we certainly agree about that!  From my point of view, the mere existence of 'other people' requires sacrifice on my part.  I'd even go so far as to state that the 'meaning of life' is the realization that I can't pursue my own interests without making the sacrifices necessary to take Emma's interests into account.  As a matter of fact, that's the only thing about 'religion' that I actually understand -- the rest is a mystery to me.

 

By the way, did you read my PLCC article?  I'd be curious to get your opinion of it. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on November 1, 2009 - 5:44pm.

Zygotes don't possess any consciousness, or will, or intelligence, or sensation or emotion. They do, however, have interests and it is in the interests of zygotes to live and to develop.

On what basis do you make this claim? Theoretically, it's possible that the whole purpose of mankind's existence is to produce the known majority - zygotes which exist for only a very short time and then die - all for some esoteric purpose known only to God, and therefore those zygotes which go on and develop all the way through to birth and personhood are the FAILURES and only necessary to God's purposes in order to produce more short-term zygotes.

You take for granted that your assumptions about the living and developing give you special insights into the value of zygotes but in doing so you consistently ignore your own bias.

We both understand, don't we, that every woman was, at one point in her life, a zygote. I'm honestly curious about your thinking, Emma -- what do you suppose happened along her development from zygote to biologically mature woman that enhanced her humanity?

She was born alive and grew up.

Submitted by crowepps on November 2, 2009 - 2:58pm.

I believe that the test of faith is a belief in the existence of other human beings. I'm constantly nurturing that faith because it would be very easy to lose it. The moment I stop believing that there are other precious people out there is the moment I lose my faith in the intrinsic value of life.

While it's nice of you to include me in the 'precious people' along with yourself, I'm unable to join you in smug certainty that my existence is of infinite value to the universe. I'm too aware that there's every possibility that I exist only as a support system for the four pounds of bacteria (with unique DNA!) that make me their home.

In addition, "I'm important because I'm human" has a haunting similarity to the self-important certainty of those whose accomplishments at the Pearly Gates will be announced as "I qualify because I'm white".

Submitted by crowepps on October 30, 2009 - 2:00pm.

I'm unable to join you in smug certainty that my existence is of infinite value to the universe. I'm too aware that there's every possibility that I exist only as a support system for the four pounds of bacteria (with unique DNA!) that make me their home.

 

crowepps,

 

As we're getting to know each other better, I'm coming to the conclusion that our philosophical viewpoints differ in ways that go far beyond the technical question of when human life begins.  In fact, to ask the question "Must fetuses be treated as well as infants are?" is to merely scratch the surface of our contrasting ways of making sense of life.

 

By now you shouldn't be surprised when I tell you that I'm eager to acknowledge our differences and to search for common ground.  Please indulge my curiosity. 

 

May I begin by looking at your phrase, "smug certainty"?  I'm wondering if you assume that faith is the absence of doubt (or, more likely, the denial of doubt).  This is something I think about a lot -- and I've come to the conclusion that the more vibrant and robust your faith is, the more doubt you entertain.  You may remember Obama's commencement address at Notre Dame earlier this year.  My favorite line is, "But remember too that the ultimate irony of faith is that it necessarily admits doubt."

 

The phrase 'smug certainty' raises, for me, the idea of someone who is terrified to even consider the possibility that her/his fundamental beliefs are flawed.  The less we trust our own 'rope of faith' the more tightly we hold on to it.

 

I spoke about nurturing a faith that there are "other precious people out there".  Did I make clear what I meant by that?  Today, for example, I was attempting to make a difficult turn through traffic and someone generously commented that I was a "fuckin' retard".  (Maybe he's a regular visitor at RHReality Check).  My response wasn't any more cheerful than the response someone else might give in a similar circumstance.  The commenter had simultaneously made me doubt his preciousness and my own.

 

It seems to me, and I welcome your comments, that the same openness of heart and mind I use to connect myself to the belief that that gentleman is "of infinite value to the universe" is an openness that allows an attack of doubt when he acts as if I were something other than infinitely valuable.

 

Like you, I'm capable of framing my experience along a conviction that my purpose in life is to be a support system for four pounds of bacteria.  But I'm also capable of framing my experience a different way.  I can choose to go one way, and I can choose to go another.

 

Within that choice there is a degree of agency which may be as close to 'infinite' as I can imagine. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 30, 2009 - 3:53pm.

The phrase 'smug certainty' raises, for me, the idea of someone who is terrified to even consider the possibility that her/his fundamental beliefs are flawed.

I agree.

It seems to me, and I welcome your comments, that the same openness of heart and mind I use to connect myself to the belief that that gentleman is "of infinite value to the universe" is an openness that allows an attack of doubt when he acts as if I were something other than infinitely valuable.

Surely these tests of faith, where you allow the incivility of others to let doubts arise in you about their 'infinite value', make it clear why you prefer to focus your idealism on the zygote, which can never disappoint you because it can never interact with you. In fact, its presence is entirely theoretical, in that you while you contemplate its 'preciousness' you can't even be sure that in any particular instance it actually exists.

 

Faith that the Universe has some sort of point must always be held in conjunction with the humbling acknowledgement that there's no evidence that point is humanity. It actually takes a great deal MORE faith to imagine God taking pleasure from the unedifying sight of humanity overbreeding to the detriment of the habitat He created for us and pronounced 'good'.

Submitted by crowepps on October 30, 2009 - 4:19pm.

It doesn't get anymore chickenshit, Paul.
Answer the question. Do you expect people to mourn the flushing of a zygote the way we mourn our stillbirths?
Full disclosure...two stillbirths, and I'm prepared to go for your jugular. I've had it with your sublime indifference to the reality of people's lives.

Submitted by ahunt on October 29, 2009 - 7:17pm.

One stillbirth would be heartbreaking.  Two is hard to even imagine.

 

You're working yourself up into a violent fit simply because I point to the difference between a subjective and objective reality.  Your stillborn children were cherished and cared for by you.  You invested yourself in each of them and your loss was tremendous.  Assuming that you have, at one time or another, passed an expired blastocyst your experience was, no doubt, something that had no effect on you whatsoever.  You weren't even aware of it.

 

I can, and do, honor your subjective experience.  One experience was gut-wrenching, the other was nothing at all.  That is the "reality of people's lives" -- "people", in this case, being you.  The reality of your children who died at birth is that they were alive and then they died.  The reality of your children who failed to implant as blastocysts is that they were alive and then they died.  The ones who died at birth had a powerful impact on your emotions -- but the fact that they had engaged your emotions isn't what conferred upon them their value as human beings.  Their value as human beings existed as long as they WERE human beings -- even before they engaged the subjective "reality" of your life.

 

Justice isn't about treating people according to how I see them, justice is about treating people according to how they actually are.  I get on your bad side simply by urging justice for people who aren't cared about.  Do you honestly believe that people who are 'cared about' count more than people who aren't?

 

You have, as they say, "led with your chin" in this conversation.  I have no desire to pour salt into your wounds nor do I have any desire to allow you to claim that I'm insensitive to the "reality of people's lives".  Your children deserved the best prenatal care and I sincerely hope that everything possible was done for them.  They would have deserved that care no matter what their mother's feelings for them were.

 

I may be many things, but I'm not 'chickenshit' -- and I don't appreciate your promise to go for my jugular.  I don't get into these conversations with the thought of ripping people apart -- my aim is always to show as much respect for people as I can.  If I can respect a blastocyst I can certainly respect you -- and I hope you will return my respect. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 29, 2009 - 8:45pm.

Answer the question, Paul.

Submitted by ahunt on October 29, 2009 - 8:54pm.

over the centuries we've included more and more people in the circle of those we consider "human beings with human rights". Paul, you want to include zygotes, microscopic entities, in this circle. 

The debate would not exist if these zygotes existed in thin air outside of other human bodies. But they do not. They exist in the bodies of people who have long since been presumed (though we're still getting there) to exist in the circle of "human beings with human rights". One of those rights is the right to decide whether or not to be pregnant. 

Do you debate whether or not humans have the right to decide whether or not they are pregnant? 

Question again: And also I would ask whether or not one should mourn the washing out of a zygote with the same grief as the death of a stillborn.

 

Submitted by Harry834 on October 30, 2009 - 12:52pm.

Do you debate whether or not humans have the right to decide whether or not they are pregnant?

If I understand Paul's position correctly, and I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong, he believes that humans only have the right to decide whether they will have sex. If they decide in the affirmative and their precautions fail, the pregnancy is compulsory.

Submitted by crowepps on October 30, 2009 - 2:40pm.

if so what kinds? I'd like to know if he supports emergency contraception, but I feel the answer is "no"

This type of inclusion into the circle of humans is beyond even vegatative state humans and premie-babies. We're talking about microscopic entities here that just formed from sperm and egg. Are we really going to call these murder victims? To the point where the woman is forbidden from taking a pill or else she'll be a murderer for these micro-victims?

 

Submitted by Harry834 on October 30, 2009 - 3:27pm.

Yes. Paul is a strong advocate of BC.

Submitted by ahunt on October 30, 2009 - 3:40pm.

I'm happy for that.

Submitted by Harry834 on October 30, 2009 - 3:59pm.

if a woman feels that the zygote inside her that just formed from sperm-egg fusion (conception) is as much a human being as anyone, and thus worth protecting through her continued pregnancy, then that is her choice, her belief, her pregnancy.

This choice and belief cannot be forced on anyone, not with the burdens of pregnancy, parenthood or adoption, and the sacrifices that go along with those.

It is true that the just-formed zygote is biologically similar to the newborn baby and both are biologically similar to the growing human. But, each are also biologically different from each other. We pro-choicers stand that the societal urge to protect the fetus should stop when the fetus is still part of the woman's body. Some restrictions in the late-term may be OK (and those who seem late-term typically have medically-serious enough reasons to qualify for abortion at these late terms). 

But we're arguing about a zygote that just formed from sperm-egg fusion. That's very biologically different than the late-term fetus and the just-born baby.

Biology can only tell us about similarities and differences. WE people decide where to draw the line, informed by what the biological similiarities and differences are. I just described above where I think the lines should be drawn. So no, I don't think only having 46 chromosomes is enough to qualify for murder-victim status in my book. Even preme babies and disabled people (to whom the "unborn" is often compared to) have a not more biological complexity than a just-formed zygote. Whether, where, and under what circumstances we choose to draw lines, informed by this biological knowledge and other facts and values, is what we people decide.

I hope we decide in favor of where pro-choicers decide, because that is the path that most allows for a woman to decide for herself in the face of which burdens to undergo - and when or if to undergo them - as far as pregnancy, parenting, adoption, sacrifice, delayed dreams, etc. 

One Catch: we may not know know if conception happened because, from what I understand, pregnancy tests only tell us about those fertilized eggs that implant on the uterine wall. We never know about the many fertilized eggs that wash away in a woman's period. 

Submitted by Harry834 on October 30, 2009 - 4:19pm.

I'd add that the use of 'late-term' lends itself to extremely fuzziness. Certainly considering everything after 12 weeks 'late' is deliberate obfuscation, since at that point the woman is only one-third of the way through the pregnancy. Even 20 weeks is only halfway through. After 24 weeks seems more reasonable since that's more certain viability (with massive handicapping complications possible for the infant), although I'd note it's still in the SECOND trimester. There's no evidence there's ever been an abortion in the third trimester for any other reason than to remove a dead fetus, because of severe fetal abnormality or to save the woman's life.

A late-term abortion often refers to an induced abortion procedure that occurs after the 20th week of gestation. However, the exact point when a pregnancy becomes late-term is not clearly defined. Some sources define an abortion after 12 completed weeks' gestation as "late".[1][2] Some sources define an abortion after 16 weeks as "late".[3][4] Three articles published in 1998 in the same issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association could not agree on the definition. Two of the JAMA articles chose the 20th week of gestation to be the point where an abortion procedure would be considered late-term.[5] The third JAMA article chose the third trimester, or 27th week of gestation.[6]

The point at which an abortion becomes late-term is often related to the "viability" (ability to survive outside the uterus) of the fetus. Sometimes late-term abortions are referred to as post-viability abortions. However, viability varies greatly among pregnancies. Nearly all pregnancies are viable after the 27th week, and no pregnancies are viable before the 21st week. Everything in between is a “grey area”.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion#Definition_of_.E2.80.9Clate-term.E2.80.9D

Submitted by crowepps on October 30, 2009 - 4:40pm.

that is her choice, her belief, her pregnancy.This choice and belief cannot be forced on anyone, not with the burdens of pregnancy, parenthood or adoption, and the sacrifices that go along with those.

 

Harry,

 

Enter into my world for a moment.  For a year I've been coming here and I've been interested in trying to get a conversation started about ways to protect the unborn and lower the rate of abortion that don't involve forcing a woman to do anything -- and yet I'm forever hearing from folks that it's a terrible thing to coerce a woman.

 

I have stated before, and I will state here again, that men have it in their power to almost entirely eliminate abortion.  Men could decide that, as a minimum standard of decent behavior, it would be wrong to have sex with a woman unless he and she had developed a workable plan to care for any child that results from their intimacies.  Men would decide that if they valued the lives of their own unborn children.

 

I used to be constrained by the comment, "abortion is a woman's issue".  Now I'm vociferous in pointing out that abortion is a men's issue too. We have it in our power to protect the unborn.  Our children are at risk of dying in an abortion.  Abortion can mean heartache for us.  

 

I say, over and over again, that if we, as a society, valued the unborn we could work out a thousand strategies for protecting them that don't involve overriding a woman's health care decisions, or violating her bodily autonomy, or forcing a pregnancy on her.

 

We don't even begin to discuss the idea of protecting our own children because there's always a chorus of fear dredging up an image of the cold steely fist of fascism wrapped tightly around the uterus.  It's such a scary, scary image that people forget the fact that the first thing you've got to do if you want to protect the unborn is to be good to their mothers.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 30, 2009 - 6:10pm.

I would like to know the same thing Harry. Paul has said that when the world 'evolves' as he sees it, the use of mifeprestone would be "unthinkable". A few weeks ago I asked if he would deny rape victims mifeprestone and he did not answer. As I understand Paul's position he believes women should be allowed contraceptives but once there's an unimplanted fertilized egg (and therefore a 'person') said female is out of luck. I could be wrong.

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on October 30, 2009 - 6:20pm.

A few weeks ago I asked if he would deny rape victims mifepristone and he did not answer.

 

colleen,

 

Let's look at a similar question, "Should a rape victim with a six week old fetus be allowed to get an abortion?"   How about an eleven week old fetus?  How about a nineteen week old fetus?

 

We all agree that women shouldn't have to carry their rapists' babies.  I'd go further and say that a woman shouldn't have to carry any baby she doesn't want.  Women should be protected from unwanted pregnancies.

 

The question is about whether an unwanted pregnancy can be 'remedied'.  The question is about whether an unwanted conception can be 'remedied'.  The answer depends upon who we count as 'people'.

 

I want to ask you -- because I'm really curious -- how you go about deciding who get to be 'people'.  It sometimes sounds to me that your idea is that you get to be a person if your existence isn't too much of a hardship on someone else. 

 

What a ghastly, horrible thing it would be to be raped.  What an incredible insult to add to that injury it would be to have to carry the rapist's baby.  It's hard to even contemplate a woman having to have to suffer that much.

 

She ought to be provided with any remedy possible short of killing a person.  So, it all gets back to the question of who's a person.

 

Do not think that I came to the conclusion that zygotes are people because I wanted rape victims to suffer.  Can you demonstrate to me that you didn't come to the conclusion that zygotes (and blastocysts, and embryos, and fetuses) aren't people because you wanted to spare women suffering? 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

 

P.S.  For those who can't add two plus two, I just told colleen that I would not administer mifepristone to a rape victim. 

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 30, 2009 - 7:10pm.

Paul...would you object to a rape victim be immediately fitted with an IUD? (relax kids...hypothetical, here)

Submitted by ahunt on October 30, 2009 - 7:19pm.

What a ghastly, horrible thing it would be to be raped. What an incredible insult to add to that injury it would be to have to carry the rapist's baby. It's hard to even contemplate a woman having to have to suffer that much.

Spare me.

Do not think that I came to the conclusion that zygotes are people because I wanted rape victims to suffer.

I never said that you did, Paul. I'm sure that you and at least some of your church's hierarchy do not desire the suffering of women as an end in and of itself. It's more like an unfortunate and necessary consequence of being born with a vagina and a uterus. As you said, abortion isn't about women.

Can you demonstrate to me that you didn't come to the conclusion that zygotes (and blastocysts, and embryos, and fetuses) aren't people because you wanted to spare women suffering?

I feel no need to justify to anyone my belief that rape victims should not be forced to carry to term the children of their rapist(s), least of all you.

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on October 30, 2009 - 8:25pm.

Let's look at a similar question, "Should a rape victim with a six week old fetus be allowed to get an abortion?"

Yes.

How about an eleven week old fetus?

Yes.

How about a nineteen week old fetus?

Yes.

We all agree that women shouldn't have to carry their rapists' babies.

Absolutely. Rapists should not only lose the right to that reproductive effort, in my opinion they should be required to have vasectomies. Repeat offenders should be castrated.

Submitted by crowepps on October 30, 2009 - 10:38pm.

Mr. Bradford, you can't have it both ways. 

I'd go further and say that a woman shouldn't have to carry any baby she doesn't want. The question is about whether an unwanted pregnancy can be 'remedied'...She ought to be provided with any remedy possible short of killing a person. 

You cannot say that women should not be forced to carry babies and then qualify it by saying as long as they aren't "killing a person" if you are defining two conjoined reproductive cells as a baby/person. The two positions are mutually exclusive.  

Submitted by dcardona on November 1, 2009 - 9:07pm.

dcardona,

 

Once you get used to Mr. Bradford's way of expressing himself, you'll realize that when he says that "a woman shouldn't have to carry any baby she doesn't want" he means that "if a woman doesn't want to be a mother she shouldn't become a mother".  Similarly, he believes that if a man doesn't want to be a father he shouldn't become one. 

 

It's not just that women shouldn't be forced to carry a baby 'to term' -- women shouldn't be forced to carry a baby even for the 'moment of conception'.

 

Every zygote should be a wanted zygote. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on November 1, 2009 - 9:38pm.

Then you should say what you mean. Any person's way of expressing themselves should not obfuscate the issue.

 

Namely, saying women shouldn't create a baby and saying they shouldn't be forced to carry a baby mean two different things, especially in a forum such as this.  And especially when not everyone agrees on what constitutes a baby in the first place. The former more accurately describes your position as you explained it (still, in vague terms because many people do not share your belief that carying a possible zygote makes them a "mother") while the latter implies access to emergency contraception, abortion and the like.

 

The passage and enforcement of the propsed legal definition of personhood will strip personal rights from fully developed people.  Your faith leads you to belive that zygotes are peole, too, so I commend your earnest efforts to protect them.  However, I only wish you success in changing the hearts and minds of individual women and men who can then take action to ensure their zygotes are wanted because I find the idea of compelling a diverse citizenry to adhere to laws borne out of a specific religious belief such as this to be articularly odious.

Submitted by dcardona on November 2, 2009 - 11:15am.

I find the idea of compelling a diverse citizenry to adhere to laws borne out of a specific religious belief such as this to be articularly odious.

 

dcarona,

 

I'm no fan of laws myself.  I suggest that you read my post near the top of this thread.

 

You talk about 'a specific religious belief'.  My belief is that human beings have the power to establish a value for human life.  My belief is that it's "in our hands".  My belief is that the value we place on human life has a tremendous impact on the quality of lives that we lead.  My belief is that history gives us many examples of societies that expanded the circle of what they considered 'valuable human life' and that those examples are examples of the kind of progress I want us to continue to make.

 

I don't see that anyone has to adhere to a specific religious belief in order to get into a productive discussion of the issues I just mentioned. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on November 2, 2009 - 2:23pm.

My belief is that human beings have the power to establish a value for human life. My belief is that it's "in our hands". My belief is that the value we place on human life has a tremendous impact on the quality of lives that we lead.

I agree with you about all of these statements. The traditional value for human life did NOT include blastocysts and most people do not believe it is reasonable to include them now.

Considering that you repeatedly admit that if you succeeded in changing the value to include speculative people things will become much more difficult for everyone, why do you continue to attempt to redefine normality for the rest of the universe according to your personal definition?

If it's "in our hands" why do you repeatedly slap away everyone else's hands and insist that only your own are capable of carrying The Truth?

Submitted by crowepps on November 2, 2009 - 3:05pm.

Question again: And also I would ask whether or not one should mourn the washing out of a zygote with the same grief as the death of a stillborn.

 

There's no need for me to give instructions to others about how much they should mourn.  They will mourn, or not mourn, based upon their own subjective experience.  I can imagine a situation where the death of a stillborn would evince a feeling of immense relief on the part of the mother.  I can also imagine a situation where the 'washing out of a zygote' (assuming we develop ways to know when this is happening) would cause great suffering.

 

Some lives are valued, some are devalued.  We don't have to look to the examples of the unborn to see this play itself out.  Look at me -- my wife thinks I'm the most wonderful man in the world, and my daughter concurs.  My mother and sister give me similar grades.  I happen to be a man who is used to the affection and admiration of women.  Does this mean my intrinsic value is greater than that of some misogynistic creep masturbating at the bus stop?  If we counted the votes of my family I'd be rated as the more valuable one.  If we took a poll of the women here, the guy in the raincoat would win out.

 

I bring this up to make the point that my value isn't dependent upon someone else's subjective experience of me.  I'm equally worthy of just treatment as anyone else.

 

ahunt's children deserved just treatment and they would have deserved this just treatment no matter how loving and sensitive a mother ahunt proved to me.  Those children deserved the best medical care possible -- not because ahunt wanted to mother them, but because that was their right as human beings.  Similarly, blastocysts deserve quality care.  No blastocyst ought to be subjected to an assault of mifepristone.  It's an assault to human dignity.

 

We don't yet have the technology to track how many blastocysts have failed as a result of the administration of certain drugs -- but we're starting to get some idea of what constitutes good medical care and what would constitute poor medical care.  People deserve good medical care whether they're well loved or whether they're not.

 

So, the answer to your question is this -- you will mourn the loss of people you love; but your love isn't the foundation of their value. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 30, 2009 - 4:22pm.

Microscopic? Size of a pin-point? Size of an ant?

Submitted by Harry834 on October 30, 2009 - 5:19pm.

"A blastocyst is a microscopic group of cells that is small enough to fit into Roosevelt's eye on face of the US dime."

http://www.kumc.edu/stemcell/images/howbig.jpg

Submitted by crowepps on October 30, 2009 - 6:45pm.

There's no need for me to give instructions to others about how much
they should mourn.  They will mourn, or not mourn, based upon their own
subjective experience
.

 

 Well gee Paul...hitherto...you have not hesitated to tell us all what we should think and feel about any given zygote. I am absolutely delighted that you NOW grant us the leeway to NOT think and feel as you would desire of us.

 

PROGRESS!

Submitted by ahunt on October 30, 2009 - 5:50pm.

PROGRESS!

 

ahunt,

 

As we go along, you're learning more about the way I say things -- and I'm learning more about the way you hear things.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on October 30, 2009 - 6:13pm.

Well gee Paul...hitherto...you have not hesitated to tell us all what we should think and feel about any given zygote.

 

ahunt,

 

I carried you around in my head, yesterday, while I was working.  We had quite an interesting conversation!  I honestly can't tell whether you've been having trouble understanding me, or whether you just don't want to understand me.

 

That comment you made earlier about my being 'chickenshit' kind of got to me.  Not so much because I'm bothered by you calling me a name, but because I can't help but think you were really hurting when you called me out.  If you were hurting it was because you were thinking that I was saying that the woman whose blastocyst fails to implant should feel as much loss as the woman who loses a baby late in pregnancy.  If that's what you think, I'm not making myself clear.

 

I have nothing to say about 'feelings'.  I only want to talk about justice, and fairness.  I'm sure you realize that a person's feelings don't always give her/him a reliable idea about what is fair.

 

Trouble yourself to read this illustrative story:

 

Dr. Choice is an OB/GYN.  One morning he gets a call from Amber.  Amber has been married for five years.  All her life all she's wanted was to be a mother.  Her husband has a good job and is more than capable of supporting a family.  Until a few months ago they had been frustrated by their inability to conceive -- when she finally found out she was pregnant and she was beyond delighted.  Today she found that she was spotting and Dr. Choice called her in for an examination.

 

Amber was in the process of miscarrying and even though Dr. Choice did everything he could to help, she lost the baby.  It was a difficult and unhappy morning.

 

Then, in the afternoon, another patient, Pam, came in.  Pam is younger than Amber, she's unmarried, she's got a boyfriend but she's not sure where that relationship is heading.  At any rate, she wants to finish college before she starts to think about starting a family.  Pam reports to Dr. Choice that after an evening of drinking, she and her boyfriend foolishly had unprotected sex.  What's worse, they did it at the most fertile point in her period.  Dr. Choice administers a dose of mifepristone.  

 

Two weeks later Amber is so distraught about losing the baby that she lashes out against Dr. Choice and hits him with an entirely unwarranted malpractice suit.  At the same time, Pam  gets her period.  Somewhere in her menstrual discharge, like a needle in a haystack, is the corpse of her blastocyst child.  Pam is so delighted by this course of events that she bakes Dr. Choice a batch of brownies.

 

OK, ahunt, here's the deal.  I don't expect Pam to feel the same way about the loss of her child that Amber feels about the loss of hers.  Nor do I expect Amber to feel like Pam feels.  I don't expect Dr. Choice to have the same feelings about the two children.  I don't expect you to have the same feeling about them and, frankly, I don't have the same feelings about them.  This story isn't about feelings.  It's about fairness.

 

There are a couple of things that are similar about the two stories.  In neither situation was the mother's health at risk and in both situations the child's life hung in the balance.  In the case of Amber's child, Dr. Choice did everything he could to keep her/him alive.  In the case of Pam's child, he did everything he could to see that s/he died. 

 

I say that both children deserved good care.  I say that an unwanted blastocyst is as deserving of good care as a wanted late-term fetus.  Not everyone evokes the same feelings in her/his mother -- but everyone deserves to be treated fairly.

 

That's what I've been saying all along.  I don't expect you to agree with me, but I don't want you to think that I'm some sort of insensitive brute who doesn't understand the first thing about a mother's feelings. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on November 1, 2009 - 10:14pm.