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"Personhood": Banning Abortion, Contraception...And More?

Amanda Marcotte's picture

For those of us who hoped that the attempts to sneak in bans on abortion, hormonal contraception, and IVF under proposed laws called “personhood amendments” would disappear after the first attempt at passing such a law on a ballot initiative was thoroughly trumped at the polls in Colorado, well, I hate to tell you, but the anti-choice extremists aren’t going away. The next new battlefield is Florida, where anti-choicers hope they can use the invisibility of most female reproductive processes to convince the voters that there’s little people lurking inside your neighbor’s ladyparts, even if there’s no biological evidence to support that proposition, and that this law will save the wee mythical people.

Obviously, there’s a good reason for pro-choicers to be alarmed when personhood amendments seem like they’re really going to get onto ballots.  If they pass, that means that anti-choicers not only have a platform to issue challenges to abortion, but also that they have a chance to go after other anti-choice goals, namely pushing for bans on reliable, female-controlled contraception like the birth control pill and the IUD.  Hey, we don’t know that female-controlled contraception doesn’t kill “babies”, since it’s all invisible behind that wall of flesh that separates the uterus from its proper Bible-thumping owners (a wall of flesh most of us call “the woman”), so better to be safe and ban the pill.  Those doctors who say the birth control pill doesn’t work that way can’t be 100% sure, so we can discount their opinions entirely.  Or, that’s the general gist of the argument, anyhow.

Clearly, a large scale challenge not only to abortion but to all of the most effective female-controlled forms of contraception is a very bad thing for women, on the grounds that anti-choicers might succeed and start forcing more women to bear children against their will.  But there is a reason for cautious optimism when it comes to the personhood amendment push.  Personhood amendments are a classic example of a political group overplaying their hand, and in this case, personhood amendments offer a great opportunity to take away the cover of fetus-concern that anti-choicers use to push their real goals of oppressing women and making sex fraught in the hopes people will have less of it.

Regular readers of RH Reality Check are no doubt familiar with the most taxing obstacle for the anti-choice movement in its goal to push its ideology into our laws, which is that they can’t be upfront with the public about what they believe without facing rejection. The organized anti-choice movement is hostile to contraception, and especially hostile to female-controlled contraception.  This gives lie to their claims that they’re indifferent to women’s liberation and sexual behavior, and only interested in saving fetal life.  Actual behavior indicates a pattern of hostility to sexual liberation, from the promotion of abstinence-only programs to the dishonest claims about the safety of the HPV vaccine.  The public is willing to accept that an anti-choicer who is fascinated by fetus life is a good person with a legitimate claim.  They’re not so sympathetic to people who just want to clap chastity belts on everyone and issue permission slips before you get to indulge your sexual desires.

The anti-choice tactic to deal with this problem is, to put it bluntly, to be two-faced.  The face offered to the public is sentimental about fetal life, so that the public assumes that anti-choicers are well-meaning, if a big silly.  The fact that there’s a larger anti-sex agenda is to be kept on the down low.  As I’ve reported before, anti-choice protesters are trained to feign compassion for women and to dissemble about contraception in order to keep up this façade.

Of course, when you actually write ballot initiatives that are about banning the birth control pill, it’s a lot harder to keep up the façade.  Not that the anti-choicers behind this aren’t trying to adapt the “just lie about what you’re up to” tactic. As Wendy Norris reported, they’ve softened up the language about a “fertilized egg” to “from the beginning of biological development”, a softening-up that is probably not only there to hoodwink the public but also to broaden the definition of what shedding of sex cells will be illegal.  Squeezed hard enough, I could see how “the beginning of biological development” could be even be used to define male masturbation and female menstruation as an exciting 21st century version of “baby-killing”.  Hey, all that sperm you left in a gym sock is kind of sort of the beginning of human development, especially if you’re daft enough to think that suppressing ovulation (which is what the birth control pill does) is “abortion”.

No matter how vaguely worded the assault on contraception along with abortion is, it’s still an assault on contraception.  (And IVF, as well, and probably a whole host of things that fit into this vague category.) And contraception is incredibly popular. 98% of women will use it at some point in their lives, which means that even the people railing against the evils of contraception are probably sneaking around and using it, while lying to their anti-choice buddies about it.  All pro-choicers need to do is make it clear to the voters that this is an assault on contraception, and assume that the secret ballot will do the rest.

This strategy worked in Colorado, with 73% of the voters rejecting a challenge to legal female-controlled contraception.  I’m going to charitably assume that most of the 25% of people who use contraception and voted against it were simply confused, with a smattering of blatant hypocrites to round it out.   A 25% confusion rate is low enough not to swing an election, but it’s still way too high.  It’s clear that our main goal in fighting back against these personhood amendments should be education.  If I may, I suggest starting with the Reality Check video on why the birth control pill is not abortion.  Once the biology’s out of the way, you can move on to explaining to your audience why anti-choicers are deliberately misrepresenting how the birth control pill works in an effort to get it banned, despite its widespread popularity.  


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You have to admit that the new wording of defining the personhood of human beings as "the beginning of the biological development of said human beings" is clever in it's ambiguity. Unlike in Colorado, where pro-choicers could challenge the fertilization criteria, any challenge now has to answer the question "When is the beginning of the biological development of a human being?" I suspect the most comforting answer to pro-choicers would be birth, but that begs the question, "If birth is the beginning of the biological development of a human being, then what has that little sucker been doing for the previous nine months in the uterus?!" I'm sure most pro-choicers will retreat to bodily autonomy arguments and then the game is over (or played on a new field).

Submitted by DerekP on September 22, 2009 - 9:19am.

You're so busy trying to come up with clever ways to trick the voters into voting for the personhood of sex cells, that you're not thinking about enforcement.  Will there be tampon checks?  Will women have to report miscarriages to the police?  Will male masturbators have to be tried for manslaughter?  If you do have a baby, that means you probably killed off untold sperm trying---and every single one of those billions could fit into a vague definition of biological beginnings of human life.  They all want to make a baby, and all were killed.  So will having a baby open you up to prosecution for all the babies you didn't have? 

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on September 22, 2009 - 12:40pm.

 

I enjoy rational discourse with many of the commenters and authors on this blog.  However, you have demonstrated a profound lack of empathy and even a basic understanding of your opponents' positions.  A comment thread with you would be more tortuous than Dick Cheney waterboarding me.  There is one way you could prove that you're more than a vitriolic blogger who creates entertainment instead of thoughtful discourse.  I challenege you to write in less than 100 words a thoughtful, straw-man free description of the pro-life/anti-abortion viewpoint.

 

I'll start with my take on the pro-choice viewpoint:  “The pro-choice position holds that women have a fundamental right to control their own bodies.  Fetuses aren’t people because they can’t think, feel or experience the hardships that grown women have to agonize over when deciding if they must choose to terminate a pregnancy.  When so much doubt exists over the life of the fetus, it should be left to individual women to decide what is best for them and their families through access to safe legal reproductive healthcare.”

 

I don't agree with the pro-choice viewpoint, but I have taken the time to understand it.  I challenege you to do the same with your opponents.

 

Submitted by DerekP on September 22, 2009 - 1:33pm.

Conveniently, you've got the pro-choice argument wrong. That's only part of the pro-choice position.

The other important part that you missed is that giving control over conception and child-bearing to the government results in the entrenchment of a woman-hostile culture. This is bad for everyone, and contrary to a just society. Seeking to elevate fetuses to the same legal status as born humans results in an undue burden on an already-oppressed segment of society.

Submitted by eggdropsoap on September 22, 2009 - 1:28pm.

Derek,

Perhaps if you could stop yourself from making unsolicited and shallow, self referential comments in threads under Amanda's posts you would be able to spare yourself the torture of conversing with her.
I think we all understand that, on the whole, the anti-abortion movement does not place any restrictions on male sexual behavior or require any real responsibility from your gender.

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on September 22, 2009 - 3:05pm.

Well Heck, Derek...I'm sure that Amanda will just hop right to it, you being so important an' all.

 

Frankly, I think most us understand the anti-choice position very well. And it is entirely possible that the bulk of our collective "empathy" lies with the people most directly impacted by anti-choice policies. So what?

Submitted by ahunt on September 22, 2009 - 3:43pm.

Seems like only the first sentence of your pro-choice position is accurate, and you should probably read a bit more about our position before you claim to understand it so well.

 

As to whether fetuses are people are not, I don't see how that matters. No one has the right to use my body without my permission. Whether they are a person, an egg, a fetus, whatever.

 

And did you read the post? It's about trying to ban female-controleld contraception. You still claim it's all about the babies? Do you understand that the best way to prevent abortions is easy access to contraception? I fail to see how banning it is going to save any fetuses.

Submitted by KatWA on September 22, 2009 - 5:31pm.

Since Nature is sexist, the way for society not to be sexist rather
than amplify the sexism is to not interfere with the woman's private
decision. If strangers interfere, it's sex and class discrimination
because men and rich people wouldn't be as affected as women and poor families. I believe that abortion care access and unfettered
reproductive choice are a necessary "affirmative action" type remedy
for Nature's sexism -- even if there is a ethical question more
complicated than "it's my decision, not yours". There's a larger ethical problem with the effects expected gender roles on women. There is also a larger ethical problem with the classist discrimination effect of restricting abortion access -- the effect of an unplanned pregnancy is less on a family with more resources, but that family can more easily access abortion. (I don’t say “no restrictions” on abortion: I believe it should be medical standards, not laws, as it is in Canada.)

 

This is my understanding of the Pro-Life stance: After conception the ZBEF is a person or a potential person. Since the woman & father
created this life, she is obligated to attempt to complete the pregnancy & the father owes support. Further, since the woman can (somewhat) defend herself, it is right for government to be an advocate for the fetus. Additionally, for people who think things happen for a reason, being born a fertile woman is a rather large sign of what God wants a woman to do.


Especially because of the last point, I can understand why Pro-Lifers have certain expectations -- that they believe are not "sexist" -- concerning how pregnant woman should accept any pregnancy and try to bring the pregnancy to term. For myself, I think my biological gender was chance, and I didn't want to get with the program (When I had my abortion 28 years ago the Earth was already overpopulated -- and we didn't want children. (That's why I had an IUD. Since it didn't work in my body, I had my tubes tied ... and that worked.))

 

I have a question for you: Do you believe that if there is systemic
sexist and classist discrimination that there should be counter
measures? Obviously, we may disagree on the relative importance of this systemic discrimination. But if many people believe it exists, do you agree there's justification for those people to want to address the problem?

 

Submitted by Julie Watkins on September 23, 2009 - 1:39pm.

"When is the beginning of the biological development of a human being?" I suspect the most comforting answer to pro-choicers would be birth

Nope, I think the beginning of the biological development of a human being is production of the sperm cell in the testicles.

Submitted by KatWA on September 22, 2009 - 5:35pm.

I am a person.

Please honestly evaluate and answer a few questions.

Do you agree with those who used religion to delay and try to stop the polio vaccine?

Do you think it is ok for a follower of one religion to force members of other religions to suffer or die for their beliefs?

Should anyone take actions to prevent someone else from saving others?

Are you the kind of person who before putting a puppy to sleep, would carefully check out the facts before making a decision?  Could you give me the same consideration? Please.

These are real questions for me, as complete strangers and people I know have written checks, voted and spoken out against what my Neurologist says are my best chances to live.

I was diagnosed with Young Onset Parkinson's Disease.

My entire family attended conferences for adult stem cells lead by the celebrated scientists whose recent discoveries gave hope to diabetics.  When asked if adult stem cells could make the ethical argument over stem cells moot, they clearly and repeatedly said "NO! adult stem cells may eventually save thousands of lives, but Embryonic Stem Cell are more likely to save MILLIONS and are more likely to be successful sooner."

I am still shaking, because last night 3 RTL'ers stopped me on the street and told me their horribly untrue version of ESCR.  They gave 6th grade level arguments against what I've been told by my Movement Disorder Specialist (a Neurologist with additional training & expertise in Parkinson's)

I asked them why didn't they try to stop Fertility Treatment, if they believed embryos should never be destroyed?  They were completely unaware Fertility treatment fertilizes eggs in a dish, and destroys the left over cells. 

They didn't know ESCR only uses cells about to be thrown away.

They quoted mis information that is easily checked out.

What I believe is:  

  • If you want your religious beliefs to be forced on others of diffferent faith, you better do due diligence (check out the facts, get info from a variety of sources, even those you disagree with.
  • Actual, real scientists state Embryonic stem cell research is the most promising, the "gold standard" and the far and away most likely source of cure for Parkinson's, many cancers, MS, spinal cord injury, diabetes, etc.
  • You may not agree with them, but you can acknowledge that most people of faith & many in the "pro-life" movement support ESCR.
    • My pastor says ESCR is further proof of God's Grace. 
    • He says those who take actions to oppose ESCR are subsituting their political will for God's Will.

 

You will likely live to see several diseases cured through ESCR.

How will you feel then, knowing you delayed the joyus relief of suffering?

Parkinson's is a terrible disease, I choke several times per day, my blood pressure drops dangerously low and flips to dangerously high, I yawn constantly, I go to the bathroom normally, then wet my pants walking out of the bathroom. I drool.

Doctors tell me my brain & brain stem no longer communicate with my autonomic system; meaning breathing, blood pressure, heart rate, temperature, sweating, digestion, swallowing. 

My version of Parkinson's is fatal, I probably would not have been saved, but I would have liked a better chance.

Submitted by Emmie on October 25, 2009 - 3:18am.

I am still shaking, because last night 3 RTL'ers stopped me on the street and told me their horribly untrue version of ESCR.

I have got to say, I just have a really HUGE problem with right-to-lifers or Mormon missionaries or America firsters or evangelicals or animal rights activists or homeless alcoholics or eco-freaks or anyone else at ALL coopting the entire public square to their own use and insisting their 'freedom' to believe whatever they like contains within it implicitly the right to steal from everyone else their freedom to use the public square.

 

I am extremely annoyed by those whose civility is NOT reciprocal, who take advantage of the good manners of strangers to highjack them as an unwilling audience to their drama queen emoting. No one, NO ONE should be stopping people on the street to do mini-demonstrations for their personal politics or emotional hangups. Unless we can get through to people that this behavior is just plain RUDE I'll have to consider getting some bear-spray. I am sure I speak for multitudes when I say that being a fanatic, about anything, does not overshadow my or anyone else's right to be LEFT ALONE in public.

Submitted by crowepps on October 26, 2009 - 2:39pm.

So tell us, Derek: Does "fetal personhood" mean that a woman can be denied medical treatments that would save _her_ life if it would endanger the fetus? It would seem so. And it seems to me that you're OK with that.
Catseye  ( (|) )

Submitted by Catseye71352 on September 22, 2009 - 11:39am.

Catseye,

 

First, to some degree I'm not comfortable with personhood language. Throughout history women and minority communities have been oppressed through personhood arguments so I prefer a human rights framework that grants equal rights based on our common humanity (a humanity shared equally by men, women, and male and female human fetuses).


As to your question, I am certainly concerned if a mother is denied medical care they need in an effort to protect their fetus. However, if all humans have equal rights then a pregnancy complication should be treated in a way that respects the equal rights of mother and child.  To quote the 20th edition of Williams Obstetrics, " . . . the status of the fetus has been elevated to that of patient who, in large measure, can be given the same meticulous care that obstetricians provide for pregnant women."


However, just because treating the unborn humanely creates moral dilemmas doesn't justify abandoning the entire endeavor. All laws create moral dilemmas.  A common cited example is the dilemma created by laws against stealing which force us to choose whether or not it is acceptable to prosecute a thief who has stolen medicine that will be thrown out in a week to save a dying relative.


I do not have the space to discuss the most ethical ways to resolve particular pregnancy complications here, but I think this can be an element of common ground for both sides of the issue: "If there are means to treat a pregnancy complication or health problem without endangering the health of either fetus or mother, then those means should be endorsed over other means which directly or indirectly harm the mother or fetus."


Hope this helps.

Submitted by DerekP on September 22, 2009 - 12:47pm.

I call straw man. An obvious one, at that.

 

Nobody is suggesting that care for a woman should disregard the fetus. In fact, it is already the practice to go to exceptional effort to treat pregnant women with special care to the fact that she's carrying a baby.

 

You're a philosophy student, I see. The medicine example is a textbook example in first-year ethics courses.

Submitted by eggdropsoap on September 22, 2009 - 1:32pm.

Do you really think that every alternate option isn't explored before a woman in that situation has to resort to terminating the pregnancy? If I was in the middle of a wanted pregnancy, I would demand that EVERY other option be explored and weighed before I chose to end the pregnancy. And I would be devastated with having to do that, even if it was the only way to save my life. The latter option is what the pro-choice movement is about, having the option and the recourses to save our own lives. Too, too many times the life of the mother is the last thing her doctors consider in pro-life areas, even when the fetus is deformed or wouldn't live moments outside of the womb. I know that you're saying that's something you disagree with, but sadly that kind of treatment and behavior is what the pro-life movement propagates. I think it's foolish to argue for abortion rights based on when life begins, because there is obviously no clear answer to that. The potential for further human life, it can be argued, begins with the life of a parent, and their parents, and so fourth. Of course it's ridiculous to think that if a child needed some procedure that would jeopardize their fertility, every option to prevent that would be taken before doing what needed to be done to save the child's life. It's also ludicrous to say that life begins at birth; clearly there was a development process that came before, but again, you could say the same of conception, before an embryo is created, the parents had to develop on their own, meet, and mate. The fact of the mater is that, as you said, the autonomy of the human begins at birth. That fact is undeniable. I think before that any woman carrying a developing human needs to proceed with the most medically and morally informed decisions for her, but ultimately, it is her choice what happens to her own body and life in the end. Because while life doesn't begin at birth, let's not pretend that separating a living fetus from a woman is some easy, simple feat, even today with our technology and medicine. Women and fetuses still die in childbirth, all the time. In fact America is one of the few countries in the world where childbirth isn't one of the leading causes of death among women, and actually we aren't very high on that list of countries where it isn't. Actually American women are currently dying from childbirth at the highest rate in decades.

Submitted by jenkcarl on September 22, 2009 - 1:39pm.

However, just because treating the unborn humanely creates moral
dilemmas doesn't justify abandoning the entire endeavor. All laws
create moral dilemmas.  A common cited example is the dilemma created
by laws against stealing which force us to choose whether or not it is
acceptable to prosecute a thief who has stolen medicine that will be
thrown out in a week to save a dying relative.

I treat the unborn just as I treat anyone else.... I am against forced organ transplants for example. 

 

And are you really suggesting it's better to throw away medicine than give it to someone who can't afford it, letting someone die??? I'm guessing you don't support healthcare reform...

Submitted by KatWA on September 22, 2009 - 5:50pm.

"And are you really suggesting it's better to throw away medicine than give it to someone who can't afford it, letting someone die?"

 

That's why it's called a moral dilemma.  Would it be better for the medicine to go to a sick person than into the trash?  Yeah.  But it was still stolen.  Good+bad=???

Submitted by Jayn on September 23, 2009 - 10:21am.

The problem with this sort of 'moral dilemma' is that the underlying assumption behind good+bad= is all on the individual put in an intolerable situation by social rules which are assumed correct. If there are people who desperately need a medication and in the interests of profit-making the medication is being thrown away and the only way the sick person can access it is for it to be stolen (or smuggled into the country), isn't the society enormously more 'bad' than the sick person or their rescuer?

Submitted by crowepps on September 23, 2009 - 3:04pm.

What if the only treatment available that could save the mother's life is one that would endanger the foetus? Should she be refused that treatment?

Submitted by Emma on September 23, 2009 - 7:22am.

“The pro-choice position holds that women have a fundamental right to control their own bodies. Fetuses aren’t people because they can’t think, feel or experience the hardships that grown women have to agonize over when deciding if they must choose to terminate a pregnancy. When so much doubt exists over the life of the fetus, it should be left to individual women to decide what is best for them and their families through access to safe legal reproductive healthcare.”





Wrong again. It doesn't matter whether or not fetuses are people. No born human being has any sort of right to commandeer another person's body, not even to save his/her own life. Forced-birthers seek to grant the unborn special rights that no born person has to commandeer the body of an autonomous person, thus relegating the status of women to somewhere beneath death row inmates and corpses. How is that not discrimination against women? Not even death row inmates may be forced to donate their tissues and organs to save the lives of others, though they have, of course, lost their right to life. The right to control one's body is so important that it holds even after we are dead and no longer need our bodies and would, thus, not be at all inconvenienced by having our corpses used to preserve others' lives.



I might find the forced-gestation position to be worthy of consideration (though still dead wrong) if this so-called right to life that trumps the right to bodily sovereignty wasn't only ever applied to women in regard to zygotes/embryos/fetuses. Why don't "pro-lifers" advocate for mandatory blood, bone marrow, organ and tissue donation?



People die all the time while waiting for an organ. Many communities are constantly dealing with a shortage of blood for transfusions. Live organ transplants are vastly superior to those harvested from even the freshly dead. These situations would be reversed and many, many lives would be saved if mandatory blood, bone marrow, partial liver donation, and posthumous organ donation were mandatory, but "pro-lifers" have convinced themselves that only ZEFs have a special right to life that for which only women are required to irrevocably damage their bodies and risk their health, life, and well-being. But mandatory tissue/organ donation policies would *gasp* inconvenience men and we can't have that!


Submitted by BJ Survivor on September 22, 2009 - 5:48pm.

People die all the time while waiting for an organ. Many communities are constantly dealing with a shortage of blood for transfusions. Live organ transplants are vastly superior to those harvested from even the freshly dead. These situations would be reversed and many, many lives would be saved if mandatory blood, bone marrow, partial liver donation, and posthumous organ donation were mandatory, but "pro-lifers" have convinced themselves that only ZEFs have a special right to life that for which only women are required to irrevocably damage their bodies and risk their health, life, and well-being. But mandatory tissue/organ donation policies would *gasp* inconvenience men and we can't have that!

There's the talking point that a pregnant woman must, because "she's the only one" and "you made the life" -- and forcing a "perfect match" to donate could be forcing someone to risk their health for a stranger. But then there are not laws (or calls for laws) to force parents of dependant children to make donations. Because, one has to assume, it might be the father not the mother that's a "perfect match". It's not about "the little baby" it's about enforcing gender roles. Most especially, other people get to tell women what to do (they're meant to be servents). It the men who get to Do Things. If a woman tries, she's being selfish.

Submitted by Julie Watkins on September 23, 2009 - 2:48pm.

Other "pro-life" talking points on why women must be forced to create children while no one must be compelled to donate blood, bone marrow, partial livers while alive or any part of their bodies when dead:



Abortion is active, while refusing to donate tissues and organs is a passive act.



Never mind that the person who is in desperate need of compatible blood, bone marrow, or an organ is sentient and well aware that he or she is going to die without it and it certainly feels like active disregard to him or her, unlike the zygote/embryo/fetus, which has no mind and no awareness whatsoever that it even exists. This specious bit of "logic" is all one needs to exonerate the many who stand by and do nothing while atrocities are committed by their governments (Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Apartheid South Africa, etc.). 



I don't know anyone who needs someone else's organs to live, but there are infants being slaughtered each and every day by abortion.



Because, obviously, if one doesn't acknowledge it, it simply doesn't exist! I'm a nurse, so I encounter individuals who need blood on a daily basis and who need bone marrow and are on organ waiting lists less frequently though still quite often. And I do not even work on an oncology floor; oncology nurses work with people on the transplant organ waiting lists each and every day.



Abortion does not "slaughter infants"; it terminates pregnancies by inducing the expulsion of zygotes/embryos/fetuses. This means that no infants are being created at all. But "pro-lifers" are not ones to let facts and reality deter them from imposing their narcissistic existentialist hysteria onto the bodies and lives of women and children.



It really boils down to the fact that women create children and the patriarchy cannot stand that it does not have total dominion over all creation and destruction. The ability to create life is a powerful, god-like thing and therefore must be controlled by men and the patriarchy. This explains why war and the death penalty are perfectly okay with the majority of "pro-lifers," even many Catholics who profess to follow all that the RCC decrees, because wars and justice systems are controlled by men (though, sometimes, also by patriarchal women).

Submitted by BJ Survivor on September 23, 2009 - 10:29pm.

There may be Pro-Lifers who are worried about a risk to life in female menstruation or male masturbation. I don't doubt that Amanda has had conversations with people who have taken extremism to unbelievable heights.  Let's leave them out of the conversation for a minute and instead try to engage people with some regard for the science of human biological processes.

 

As I've explained on many threads, I'm opposed to any sort of 'Personhood Amendment' as are the bishops of the Catholic Church.  I would, however, like to assert that it's actually possible to recognize and respect the lives of everyone, beginning at fertilization, without being as extreme as the people in Amanda's examples.

 

There are, currently in the United States, a little less than 500,000 living zygotes and blastocysts.  250,000 will die before they implant.  50,000 will die in a procured abortion and 25,000 will die in a spontaneous abortion.  The 175,000 who will survive to birth have an excellent chance of living long enough to get to know their grandchildren.

 

On the other hand, there are roughly 7,500,000,000,000 (7.5 trillion) ova inside the bodies of women and girls and an almost incalculable number of sperm inside all the testicles of men in the U.S.

 

To concern yourself about the well being of 7.5 trillion eggs would be ridiculous.  To be concerned about the well being of 500,000 young people is somewhat less ridiculous -- especially since there are more than 300,000,000 'walking around' people in the country.

 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 23, 2009 - 10:16am.

I was just curious, since so many individuals seem to be so involved with having a woman's reproductive system under government control and scrutiny - what about the mans? Pro-Lifers are against female contraceptives and abortion...so what happens when a male contraceptive finally comes out onto the market? They've been working on one for years. So under personhood laws, would those efforts for male contraceptive have to cease? Or are they "not as bad" as a woman using birth control? The thing that irritates me more about personhood laws, is that even though any biology or anatomy book can state that human development begins at either implantation or fertilization (depends on the author, and I have one of each); the fetus at 2 weeks is not viable outside of the womb. Neither is it at 15 weeks. When that sucker can start living on its own outside of my body, then I can call it a person - until then, it is just a fetus. AND, if we start recognizing a fetus as a person from the start of fertilization, does that mean we have to provide a SSN, a name, and a form of ID at that point to? I'm sorry - but I'm not understanding where the "law" can start granting rights to someone or something that doesn't exist yet. "If you can't trust a woman with a choice; then why would you trust her with a child?"

Submitted by Savannah on September 23, 2009 - 12:30pm.

I'm sorry - but I'm not understanding where the "law" can start granting rights to someone or something that doesn't exist yet.

You misunderstand the purpose of the law. It is not to grant 'rights' to the zygote or blastocyst but to remove them from the woman.

Submitted by crowepps on September 23, 2009 - 3:27pm.

As far as I'm concerned, you don't even deserve to be part of the conversation unless you agree that it's vital to empower women with the ability to prevent childbirth unless they're ready, willing and able to take on the responsibilities of motherhood.  Such empowerment is not only good for women, it's good for children and it's good for society.

 

You all may well have gotten into conversations with Pro-Lifers who want to deny women this power but have you ever heard them advance one cogent argument for their position?   What's that you say?  There is no counter-argument?  That's what I thought.  So, my question to you is why do you bother getting into discussions with them.  What do you hope to learn?

 

My concern, and the concern of many Pro-Lifers isn't around female empowerment -- it's around the question of whether this empowerment is achieved by violent means or non-violent means.  It really matters to me that the means be non-violent.  Many forms of contraception are non-violent.  There are non-violent forms of contraception that women use and forms that men use.  Abortion, on the other hand, is problematic because it's violent.  Laws designed to prevent abortion are also violent because they involve violating a woman's privacy and bodily autonomy.

 

The only thing, then, that's left for those of us who want to follow the path of non-violence is to raise people's consciousness about the violence of abortion and the violence of certain forms of birth control.  That, plus a willingness to trust that women don't want to achieve empowerment in a violent manner.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 23, 2009 - 4:28pm.

violence of certain forms of birth control.

 

Come again?

Submitted by ahunt on September 23, 2009 - 5:18pm.

I'm sure he means the non-hormonal IUD, which was thought to work by preventing implantation. WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE POOR BLASTOCYSTS!!11ELEVENTYONE111!!. Some of us considered that a feature, but studies now show that the non-hormonal IUD works by preventing fertilization.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on September 23, 2009 - 7:58pm.

I need to catch up. I'd not been following IUD med tech, and still believed the IUD's contraceptive effect was poorly understood.

Submitted by ahunt on September 23, 2009 - 9:43pm.

Family Health International links to an article on how IUDs work at http://www.fhi.org/en/RH/Pubs/Network/v16_2/nt1623.htm. It's only in very rare instances that it works by preventing implantation. Of course, that it may happen at all, even if only once in a blue moon, is enough for the forced-birth brigade to declare it "abortifacient" and therefore "violent."

Submitted by BJ Survivor on September 23, 2009 - 10:39pm.

As far as I understand it -- and you can correct me if I'm wrong -- the 'Morning After' pill (also known as Plan B or mifepristone or RU486) is designed to prevent pregnancy after conception has taken place.  In that situation, a couple already has a child and medicine in introduced to make certain that that child doesn't survive.  

 

There is, as you and I both know, at least a 50% chance that the child won't survive even if mifepristone isn't administered, but the use of the drug is intended to frustrate normal human development.  I consider that violent. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 24, 2009 - 7:27am.

It is stretching the definition of "child" to ridiculous preportions to classify a fertilized sex cell a child, and diminishes the suffering of those who have actually lost born children, or late-term, wanted pregnancies, by conflating them with people who never wanted to be pregnant.  Clever, that, creating an artificial class of people and crying about oppression and violence when your other hand is busy shoving women into the mother/whore dichotomy.

 

Submitted by Princess Rot on September 24, 2009 - 8:56am.

It is stretching the definition of "child" to ridiculous preportions to classify a fertilized sex cell a child, and diminishes the suffering of those who have actually lost born children, or late-term, wanted pregnancies, by conflating them with people who never wanted to be pregnant.

 

colleen got into this with me on another thread.  I frankly don't care if we use the term 'child' or 'offspring' or 'son/daughter' or 'immediate descendant' or 'genetic heir'.  Somehow we've got to come up with a word that expresses the relationship between a living human body and the two human bodies that provided her/him with her/his DNA.

 

No matter what term we come up with we will both be able to point out that the death of every child (or whatever) is not mourned equally by the parents (or whatever) of that child.  What difference does that make?  My value as a human being and my right to life are not dependent upon how much I will be missed if I go. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 24, 2009 - 8:22pm.

All those words are synonyms for "child". It is, frankly, inappropriate to call a fertilized egg a child, and smacks of a panty-sniffing preoccupation with a woman's reproductive system. I will not call a fertilized egg a child, as sure as I won't call an acorn an oak tree because some people think its "treeist" not to, or something. We already have perfectly good words for all those things at all stages. Fertilized egg. Blastocyst. Zygote. Embryo. Fetus.

Somehow we've got to come up with a word that expresses the
relationship between a living human body and the two human bodies that
provided her/him with her/his DNA.

Having human DNA, or merely being present, does not make one precious and deserving of special rights to commandeer another person's body to ensure right to life. As BJSurvivor said upthread, no other person has that right, even if they are going to die without it.

My value as a human being and my right to life are not dependent upon how much I will be missed if I go. 

My value as a human being is not defined by fertility and how many snowflakes I bring to birth. My right to have control over my body and reproduction are not revokable upon the presence of a zygote. If they are, as the forced-birth brigade would have it, then women are nothing more than incubators. Taking that logic furthur, a female is only fully human until she becomes capable of reproducing, then she is in a position where she loses her rights automatically because of a law or social construct that says she is secondary to an oocyte.

Submitted by Princess Rot on September 25, 2009 - 5:41am.

My value as a human being is not defined by fertility and how many snowflakes I bring to birth.

 

Princess,

 

When you direct a comment like that at me it makes me wonder if you've ever bothered to read one of my posts.  As I have pointed out, on numerous occasions, there are many, many women whose contribution to our world lies outside the realm of maternity.  I've even suggested that as many as 50% of all women would probably be doing everyone a favor if they devoted their efforts to something other than producing and raising children.  I make comments like that, and yet you assail me with a rant like this.  Who are you talking to?

 

Honestly, honestly, honestly it is exceedingly frustrating to have you block your ears to what I say because you're so sure that you already know my thoughts that I needed bother to articulate them.

 

My right to have control over my body and reproduction are not revokable upon the presence of a zygote.

 

Here's what you're trying to assert: "I am in control even if I've lost control."   There's nobody in the world who believes more strongly than I do that a woman ought to be able to prevent conception if she doesn't choose to have a child.  She not only has the right to do so, I claim she has a DUTY to do so.  I also assert that a man has a duty not to father a child if he isn't willing to undertake the responsibilities of caring for her or him.

 

I want you to have control over your body.  I want you to have control over your reproduction.  But what happens if you lose control?  "The presence of a zygote" means that you've reproduced!  You've done what you tried not to do.  You've done what I wish you hadn't done.  It's terrible -- but it's done so you face the option of making your problem go away if you simply end somebody's life.  That's a little harsh so you give yourself some wiggle room and claim that the somebody is a nobody.  You don't want to be the type of person who figuratively climbs over someone else's dead body in order to get what you want so you deny that there even IS a dead body.

 

It's the assault on logic and reason that disturbs me.  When I mention the fact that, as a member of the human race, I have a calling to protect others from violence and death you say, "There's nobody to protect.  No one is being victimized by violence.  Pay no attention to that person inside the placenta."

 

At least BJSurvivor says, "no other person has that right [to commandeer another person's body], even if they are going to die without it."  She's not trying to pretend there's nobody to be concerned about, nobody that might possibly be saved from violence.  She realizes that she has to assert the dubious 'right' to let someone else die.

 

You don't share BJSurvivors intellectual honesty.  You say, "It is, frankly, inappropriate to call a fertilized egg a child, and smacks of a panty-sniffing preoccupation with a woman's reproductive system."  Think about how silly that is!  (Not to mention rude and disrespectful of me.)  A fertilized egg is as much a product of the man's reproductive system as it is the woman's reproductive system.  Their contribution is equal.  You could accuse me of jock strap sniffing with the same degree of logic.

 

I care about fertilized eggs because I used to be one.  The body I had then is the body I have now.  I was alive then.  I'm alive now.  I was human then.  I'm human now. I certainly didn't acquire my life or my humanity any time subsequent to my acquiring my body.  You say I had no right, then, to be thought of as a 'child' -- well I had the right to be thought of as me, because I was what I am. 

 

If they [women's rights] are [revokable] , as the forced-birth brigade would have it, then women are nothing more than incubators.

 

What I care about, Princess, is finding ways to protect some of my fellow human beings from being victimized.  For some reason you won't take me at my word and you insist that I must "really" care about something other than that. When you use a phrase like 'forced-birth brigade' you put yourself in the position of pretending that I care about something really creepy like coercing unwilling women into becoming mothers.  You don't even need to debate me, then.  You simply have to point out how dishonorable my aims are and ridicule me instead of conversing with me.

 

Let me point out yet again that my interest in women's reproductivity is in having fewer women producing fewer children.  My interest in men's reproductivity is identical.  I wish fewer men were fathering fewer children.  Too many women already are 'incubators', too many men are 'sperm donors'.  Got it?  I want people to be more empowered (and more responsible) about not producing children they're not prepared to do a good job of raising.

 

If there's any forcing going on it's not being done by the mothers who are allowing their children to grow.  Birth is the direct consequence of there being 'a presence of a zygote'.  An infant is a zygote, just older and more developed.  If you don't force anything the zygote has a chance of developing into an infant.  S/he also has a chance of not developing at all.  Could go either way -- if you don't force things.  You're the one proposing the forced solution.  You're encouraging mothers who regret the fact that they've conceived a child to force their reproductive systems to eject that child -- even if that's not what the reproductive system is going to do naturally.

 

You misrepresent what I say, and you misrepresent what I want.  I'm opposing force.  I'm in favor of empowerment.  I'm sure that if you tried, even a little, we could have a more productive conversation.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 25, 2009 - 8:13pm.

Who are you talking to?

I am under the impression I am talking to a pro-lifer who believes that fertilized eggs are children. Please feel free to disabuse me of this notion if it is incorrect.

You're encouraging mothers who regret the fact that they've conceived a child to force their reproductive systems to eject that child -- even if that's not what the reproductive system is going to do naturally.

Scuse me? Women who have zygotes are not "mothers" yet, and I am not for forcing them to do anything. I will happily offer unbiased advice to the full extent of my knowledge, but I am not forcing anything. I never said I was, you're just plain  making shit up here. Which brings me onto another point.

No, I have not "lost" anything. I already said, I do not "lose control" and can therefore have my rights stripped away in favor of a fertilized oocyte, so I do not selfishly behave as though I am an autonomous person like I did when I had sex. You sound like a modern version of the Victorian doctors who concluded that women were too weak and hysterical to be considered persons, and if they didn't focus on childbearing they were good for nothing. 

There is actually no way to know if an egg is fertilized but fails to implant. hCG is a hormone which is the first indicator of pregnancy. When the zygote implants, it begins secreting hCG in order to signal to the ovary to not degrade the corpus luteum. Sometimes this doesn't work, and it terminates (it is not the only "cause" of miscarriage however). If the egg is fertilized and then doesn't implant we would never know. We can speculate that it might happen, but there is no way to prove or disprove it.

Conversely, a woman using no protection whatsoever sloughs off an (estimated) four fertilized eggs per live birth she has. Quick, go and tell Michelle Duggar she's a murderer! My best friends' mom had seven, count 'em, seven mid-term miscarriages before she had her three live children. Did she have ten children? No. She has three children and has suffered miscarriages for which a cause was never found. Perhaps she didn't do "enough" to prevent her body rejecting those fetuses? Could it be that she smoked throughout all pregnancies? Could it be something else? In your ideal world, would she be tried for negligent homicide? My friend herself has had two miscarriages, and doesn't smoke. Could it be a genetic propensity to miscarry she inherited from her mother? We have no way of knowing, and I would die fighting anything that suggested all women be subject to an ideal that all our responsibilities lie between our legs.

My mom is a very small woman. When I was born, I had bent feet from being squashed against her pelvis. It has left me with permanant deformity of the toe bones. Since she did nothing to prevent this, and in your view a fetus is a person, did she negligently harm me? I don't ask these questions to be facetious. With or without a way to prove a "life" is present, there is no end to the irrational demands and restrictions that could be placed upon women before, during and after sex/pregnancy, because how could you tell or prove anything? Did the little precious abort spontaenously, or because she's on the pill, or because she drank coffee on Tuesday?

Personally, I don't want to live under a cloud of suspicion that I am somehow "killing babies" no matter what I do. I suggest that you listen to the majority crazies in your movement. The policy of ignoring them and hoping they'll go away isn't working.To them, even using barrier methods is immoral because it prevents souls from entering this world and is therefore morally the same as killing. Seriously. They won't admit they just like screwing women over by proxy. They won't come out like the Taliban did and just admit that women receiving healthcare is immoral because we were put here on earth to have men's children then quietly wither and die. It's not about babies, it's about social control. I've not much faith that you mean any better than they do. They want to force it, you dress up the same coercive policies in a dress and killer heels and call it "empowerment". Sorry, but putting lipstick on a bulldog does not make it look like Sarah Palin, no matter if she says it does.

Submitted by Princess Rot on September 26, 2009 - 7:20am.

My mom is a very small woman. When I was born, I had bent feet from being squashed against her pelvis. It has left me with permanant deformity of the toe bones. Since she did nothing to prevent this, and in your view a fetus is a person, did she negligently harm me? I don't ask these questions to be facetious.

 

Princess,

 

I know, really I know, that you're not asking the question to be facetious.

 

Your example is a perfectly good one and I'm more than willing to take it up.  Let me begin by saying that I don't think your mother was in any way culpable or negligent or anything like that -- but that doesn't mean that I think the result was satisfactory.  What isn't getting through is the fact that I have no interest in assigning blame, I'm only interested in improving the results.

 

I think it would be worthwhile for human beings to continue to advance in the field of obstetrics with an eye to lowering the likelihood that fetuses will become "squashed" as they develop.  The physical development of fetuses is something that is worth valuing.  It's 'Pro-Life' to want fetuses to grow in a manner that is conducive to their overall well-being.

 

The fact that your fetal experience was something less than perfect does not prompt me to want to identify the 'villain' that caused your distress.  I'm not charged up with a desire to reproach her.  Reproach is something that has very, very little usefulness.  I'm interested in something different.  I'm eager to foster the hope that people, in the future, will not have to go through what you went through.  Your experience mattered to you.  Clearly the experience happened to you -- not to some 'non-person'.  You can look at your toes for proof that the body you have now is the same body as the fetus that was developing in your mother's uterus.  If you count, that fetus counts.

 

Women who have zygotes are not "mothers" yet, and I am not for forcing them to do anything. I will happily offer unbiased advice to the full extent of my knowledge, but I am not forcing anything. I never said I was, you're just plain making shit up here.

 

I can see that I'm not getting through here.  I made a mistake in leaving the impression that you, as a third party, were the one making the decision.  Let's try it this way.  If you're addressing a pregnant woman and your advice is to not force anything, you would be essentially be advising her to carry her child to term.  If your advice is to terminate the pregnancy, your advising her to 'force' an abortion.

 

I was quibbling about your use of the term 'forced birth' and I was pointing out the fact that people use the word 'force' to indicate the exercise of human agency.  It's possible for a woman to 'make' a pregnancy stop.  She doesn't 'make' it continue because it continues without her doing anything.  My interest isn't in forcing birth -- my interest is in having women dissuaded from the plan of forcing an abortion. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 26, 2009 - 12:25pm.

The presence of a zygote" means that you've reproduced!

 

You cannot be serious! The presence of a zygote means that one MIGHT reproduce.

Submitted by ahunt on September 26, 2009 - 12:58pm.

My value as a human being and my right to life are not dependent upon how much I will be missed if I go.

I remember reading a book about white supremacy groups, and how groups of misfits and losers and failures were able to feel a sense of value because 'at least they were white' as though that luck of the draw was a distinguishing characteristic and justification for entitlement. Your comment here might be interpreted as indicated that perhaps some who fear they will not be missed when they go and who feel they are not valued focus on the lowest common denominator of being genetically 'a human being' as their claim to entitlement.

Submitted by crowepps on September 25, 2009 - 12:16pm.

Your comment here might be interpreted as indicated that perhaps some who fear they will not be missed when they go and who feel they are not valued focus on the lowest common denominator of being genetically 'a human being' as their claim to entitlement.

 

I can understand why you'd be critical of a bunch of "misfits and losers and failures" who prop up their sense of self-esteem by overvaluing their whiteness (and, presumably, undervaluing non-whiteness).

 

Am I to understand that you're equally critical of people who believe that a person's humanity is reason enough to feel an alliance with her/him?

 

We agree that it's disturbing for white people to feel solidarity with other white people while excluding non-white people.  I can't, however, agree that there's anything disturbing about people taking an inclusive attitude and feeling solidarity with everyone. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 25, 2009 - 8:27pm.

Am I to understand that you're equally critical of people who believe that a person's humanity is reason enough to feel an alliance with her/him?

You missed my point. Taking the world as a whole, and all the creatures in it, there is nothing special about humans that entitles them to extra consideration from the universe, or even from other humans in preference to everything else, merely because they are human. The idea that a tiger can eat a deer or a goat or a cow and that's 'just natural' but that it's a terrible, horrible thing if the tiger eats a human is nothing more than an ego-based hope that humans are exempt from the laws of nature. We have a heck of a lot more humans than we need, and far too few tigers.

 

You have commented in a number of threads that you are "not sure why I feel this way" or said that "I can't put my finger on exactly why" you believe what you do. Perhaps instead of getting upset because other people don't feel the same way, and don't agree that feeling that way indicates some sort of higher ethical status or that believing those things is "more fully human", it would profit you more to spend some time figuring out why you feel the way you do and believe what you believe.

Submitted by crowepps on September 26, 2009 - 3:46pm.

Taking the world as a whole, and all the creatures in it, there is nothing special about humans that entitles them to extra consideration from the universe, or even from other humans in preference to everything else, merely because they are human.

 

crowepps,

 

I can't see how it could possibly have escaped your attention, but the homo sapiens runs this planet.  If we do our jobs properly, Mother Earth will be a fine place to live for all of God's little creatures.  If we screw up, we can make a real mess of things!

 

I'm not particularly concerned about the behaviors of tigers, deer, goats or cows.  I predict that it would be a total waste of time to try to teach them the principles of non-violence.  I'm confident in our capacity to deal with the violence of animals.  

 

Human violence is another matter entirely.  You brought out the example of a tiger killing a person.  I'm more concerned about people killing tigers by wiping out entire ecosystems.  We'll probably never get tigers to gain mastery over their anti-social impulses, but I figure we'll manage.  On the other hand, it's utterly vital that human beings get a grip on themselves.  You may call that egotistical, but I claim that ignoring that reality is a recipe for disaster.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 26, 2009 - 4:29pm.

I can't see how it could possibly have escaped your attention, but the homo sapiens runs this planet. If we do our jobs properly, Mother Earth will be a fine place to live for all of God's little creatures. If we screw up, we can make a real mess of things!

We've already made a real mess of things. The illusion that homo sapiens runs this planet is part of the reason.

Submitted by crowepps on September 26, 2009 - 4:46pm.

The illusion that homo sapiens runs this planet is part of the reason.

 

Some people claim that God is running the planet, but I prefer to believe that we've been entrusted with its care along with a few instructions -- such as, "Thou Shalt Not Kill".  We're going to continue having trouble with our assignment as long as we follow the path of violence. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 27, 2009 - 5:37pm.

Brad -

This is how my pathology professor explained Plan B to the class and how it works. It is designed to prevent implantation of a possibly fertilized egg, by changing the lining of the uterin wall. Basically, it kick starts a woman to start her period sooner; which is sloughing of the dead cells lining the uterus. An egg, after it has been released needs to be fertilized within 24 hours - if not, it dies anyways. If it is, it can take up to 10 days to implant on the uterine wall. Since it is pretty much impossible to tell whether or not a woman is pregnant within 24 hours of having sex because the HcG hormone is not present until after implantation occurs, the Plan B was designed that if in case, within the 24 hours that our bodies have released an egg and it potentially became fertilized, we take the pill, and it kick starts the uterine wall to change its lining so that the possibility of a fertilized egg cannot attach to it. Plan B also needs to be taken within 72 hours of intercouse. The first 24 hours is the best time to take it, but the longer you wait, the better chance that implantation can occur. After 72 hours, Plan B doesn't work anyways.

 

With that said, you really can't think of it as being violent or creating an abortion everytime someone takes it. When any woman is going to drop an egg out of her fallopian tube, and which 24 hours it is going to be viable in her "cycle", no one actually really knows because it is not an exact science. We have fertility monitoring tests that call tells us between which "days" you are more likely to conceive, but we do not have the ability to actually pinpoint an exact date and/or time for when the egg is going to be released and ready to be fertilized. If that was the case, then I think a lot of women would just avoid having sex during that 24 hour egg releasing window. So really, its quite possible that some women who are taking Plan B, might not have even had an egg released.

 

Hope that helps.

 

"If you can't trust a woman with a choice; then why would you trust her with a child?"

Submitted by Savannah on September 24, 2009 - 10:13am.

<blockquote>As far as I understand it -- and you can correct me if I'm wrong -- the 'Morning After' pill (also known as Plan B or mifepristone or RU486) is designed to prevent pregnancy after conception has taken place. </blockquote>

 

You are talking about two different medications.  Plan B is NOT RU486.  Plan B contains the hormone levonorgestrel.  RU-486 contains an artificial steroid that blocks progesterone and also in brand name Cytotec the hormone prostaglandin.  RU-486 is ALSO sometimes used as back-up birth control, but Plan B and RU-486 are completely different medications made of different ingredients and with different methods of action.  The fact that you don't already know this is pretty staggering.

Submitted by crowepps on September 24, 2009 - 4:13pm.

The fact that you don't already know this is pretty staggering.

 

Well, crowepps, it pains me dearly to have to have my ignorance exposed to someone I respect as much as I do you.

 

But, as I read the responses of others, I don't appear to be the only one who was under the impression that Plan B worked on fertilized cells to keep them from implanting.  My ignorance might have been worsened by commercials such as this one made by the manufacturers of the product. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 24, 2009 - 8:33pm.

The confusion might also arise from the deliberate misinformation promoted by various ProLife anti-contraception groups who are doing their absolute best to promote the view that EVERYTHING to do with contraception is 'equivalent to abortion' because they want women to 'suffer' pregnancy as 'punishment' for sex.

Submitted by crowepps on September 25, 2009 - 12:19pm.

various ProLife anti-contraception groups who are doing their absolute best to promote the view that EVERYTHING to do with contraception is 'equivalent to abortion' because they want women to 'suffer' pregnancy as 'punishment' for sex.

 

crowepps,

 

They exist.  They live among us.  I'm not denying it.  There actually are mean-spirited and heartless people who act as if an illegitimate child were God's punishment for a woman's sexual impropriety.  These people oppose contraception but what they really oppose is any mitigation of God's punishment on people they disapprove of.  The same people took it into their heads that AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuality.  I don't know how many people take this attitude but I know we've both encountered them and I know that if you meet even one s/he'll leave a strong impression on you. 

 

Can you and I just tune those folks out and see if we can agree that it would be better to find a way to prevent conception than it would be to frustrate the development of an already formed conceptus? 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on September 25, 2009 - 8:37pm.

Can you and I just tune those folks out and see if we can agree that it would be better to find a way to prevent conception than it would be to frustrate the development of an already formed conceptus?

Well, no, actually we can't just 'tune those folks out since so many of them have been elected to congress and our state legislatures, or are the 'base' whom elected officials feel compelled to satisfy. It's extremely unwise to 'tune out' the people shaping public policy.

Submitted by crowepps on September 26, 2009 - 3:37pm.