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The "Pro-Life" Movement's Hot Rhetoric and All-Out Lies

Amanda Marcotte's picture

One of the most contentious issues now in the news, in the aftermath of the assassination of Dr. George Tiller, is how much moral culpability the anti-choice movement bears for motivating the man who took Dr. Tiller's life.  I've had innumerable discussions with folks who are confused about the extremism and anger that characterizes the "right to life" movement, people who mistakenly believe that it's a mostly harmless group of rosary-shuffling grandmothers who, at worst, sit around abortion clinics looking doe-eyed. Or that the picketers at women's clinics could be reasonably described as peaceful.  Discrediting these myths isn't fun or easy, but something that fell into my lap in the past week coincidentally turns out to be quite helpful in convincing people that the anti-choice movement, rather than being composed of generally good-hearted folks who just have a thing for fetuses, is in fact composed of hard-hearted sexist ideologues.  I've got my hands on a 113-page training manual (PDF) for protesters working for Justice For All, an anti-choice organization that targets college campuses (in keeping with the anti-choice obsession with singling out young, middle class women, whom they wish to preserve as symbols of virginal innocence).  Don't worry. My sources got this manual the old-fashioned way, by asking.

As a long-time observer of the anti-choice movement, I thought I'd really seen it all in terms of lying, phony sanctimony, and heated rhetoric that will push anti-choicers to commit violence, but still, reading this manual, titled "Abortion: From Debate To Dialogue," was distressing.  The book assumes that its protesters will be sent into a field where they actually have to engage arguments instead of merely yelling abuse and scaring women seeking abortion care.  Since my scanner is slow, and time is limited, I didn't turn all 113 pages into a PDF, and since much of it is just Q&A sections and scripture, I didn't feel I had to.  But I did grab some interesting pages on arguments to make and rhetorical strategies to use against pro-choicers who try to engage anti-choice activists. 

What I first learned was that Justice For All has no problem instructing its activists to use deception to lure people into a conversation.   In the section titled "Why Don't You Pass Out Condoms and Promote Birth Control?," the authors tacitly admit that sensible people might be put off by the anti-choice movement's willingness to increase the abortion rate by standing as firmly against contraception, especially the birth control pill, as they do legal abortion.  So instead of allowing members to admit their hostility to all forms of contraception, they instruct them to conceal their beliefs until a target has been softened up to hear about their true message--sexual abstinence for all not trying to procreate--through a series of dodgy, misleading arguments, including misinformation about how the birth control pill works.

This tactic is a mainstay of the  anti-choice movement: it shows one face to the initiated, and another to the public, especially on the topic of contraception.  Once you realize this, the movement's half-hearted denunciations of Dr. Tiller's murder, coupled with the enthusiastic return to calling Dr. Tiller a monster, become all the more chilling. 

Throughout the handbook, you find a willingness to ignore or outright deny inconvenient facts.  The section "What If The Mother's Life Is In Danger" is particularly outrageous, in light of the fact that it spreads many of the lies that led directly to Dr. Tiller's assassination.  Dr. Tiller performed a number of medically indicated late term abortions, and anti-choice attempts to use legal persecution to catch him fudging the ugly realities proved fruitless.  Despite this, Justice For All encourages its activists to believe they know better than medical doctors what constitutes a medically necessary abortion, and the handbook claims there is only one instance where a pregnancy can threaten a woman's life.  Conveniently, the one dangerous condition they'll admit exists (and consider a justifiable reason for an abortion) happens to be the one that is most likely to threaten her future fertility--the ectopic pregnancy--so they can rest easy knowing that even if a woman's life is saved through abortion, she's paid a steep price. Other dangerous conditions caused by pregnancy--eclampsia and placenta previa being the two biggies--are dismissed as myths used to get away with abortions.  Other life-threatening illnesses like cancer are ignored, and it's assumed that a woman's health is certainly an acceptable sacrifice for a pregnancy

This casual disregard for women's lives is acknowledged as a credibility-wrecking problem in another section "Women Will Die in the Back Alleys with Coat Hangers."  It's clear that Justice for All activists have convinced themselves that making abortion illegal actually doesn't hinder access to safe abortions (!), but followers are instructed to pretend to concede that illegal abortion is dangerous, to gain credibility. (Which means they have to pretend to believe what they don't, but ironically what they don't believe is true.  It's a rabbit hole of deceit and misinformation.) The important thing is creating the illusion of concern for women's lives, apparently, and the manual even offers a small section titled "Sound Bites For Showing Concern," which the activist is supposed to use to soften up the target before comparing an elective abortion (most commonly performed in the first trimester) to shooting a toddler.  One does wonder when reading this section if Justice for All offers role-playing classes so you can practice your "concerned" face when someone brings up the problem of women who are mutilated and die due to illegal abortion.

Shocking as all this is, perhaps the most shocking is the section addressing what Justice For All believes about the motivations of doctors who perform and women who obtain abortion, in a section titled "Abortion Isn't Genocide!"  Yes, they believe that abortion is genocide, and their rationales for this belief depend on a bunch of out-of-context quotes suggesting that terminating a pregnancy is exactly the same thing as targeting a people for elimination.  People commit genocide because they hate the group in question, so the implication (barely implied, and almost directly stated) is that doctors and women who have abortions do so because they hate fetuses.  Not because the woman can't go through a pregnancy for a myriad of personal reasons.  Not because the doctor is trying to help the woman.  No, because pro-choicers hate fetuses.

This is the sort of vicious lie that led to Dr. Tiller's assassination.  Realistically speaking, Dr. Tiller was a good man who loved children enough to have four of his own, who joyfully celebrated the pregnancies of women who wanted to be pregnant, who opened his home to women who wished to give their babies up for adoption, and who mourned the loss of very much wanted pregnancies with his patients who had to terminate. In the eyes of his detractors, Dr. Tiller was a genocidal monster who killed fetuses because he hated them.

That is why every person who trots out this nonsense about how abortion is "genocide" played a part in Sunday's tragedy.  You paint good, moral, righteous man who lived by his principles, even in the face of grave danger as an irrational monster who gets his kicks by killing babies, and the people who believe you will feel they have to do something.  Even if that something is murder.


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218 comments
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Your unfair characterization of the majority of pro-life protesters is completely unfair. I am sure it is more comfortable for you to demonize those who disagree with you. That way it makes it easier to hate them. As a peaceful pro-life person who also happens to be an atheist, I resent your characterization. I am a liberal and a Democrat who also happens to be horrified by late term abortion. I don't believe in the soul. But only a fool can see the pictures of these young children slaughtered and call it anything other than murder. The truth is that there are all types of folks who are opposed to abortion, and not all of them are right wing nutjobs. Do abortion doctors hate fetuses? Of course not. Many, however, simply don't care either way. Dr. Tiller did perform elective abortions. These were done not out of medical necessity, but for the convenience of the mother. To Dr. Tiller, the dollar meant more than anything. Abortion is a lucrative industry. It was unfortunate that he was murdered. I don't condone his slaying. But we shouldn't kid ourselves here--he was no hero.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 1:23am.

or the many women he helped? you made the absurd and cold-hearted claim these were "elective" abortions. i find that so repulsive. so many who are anti-abortion are so ignorant about it. that you don't know that these late term abortions are incredibly tragic cases, that to me screams your ignorance.
yeah, and dr. tiller was just soooo only in his profession to make a buck that he put up with being shot before, bomb threats, threats on his family, having to be driven to work in an armored truck, etc. yep. that sounds just like the plastic surgeons in beverly hills who prey on aging women afraid of losing their looks. yep. just in it for the money.
dr. tiller's assassination and the subsequent responses of anti-abortionists has only reinforced to me that anti-abortionists only care for fetuses, zygotes, and embryos. and i really do think it's because caring for some abstract thing based solely on personal religious beliefs is lazy and easy. where's the fight for homeless children? where is the outrage for kids in appalachia who go to bed hungry? where is the outcry for children who are victims of domestic violence? oh, i guess that would take true conviction and actual action and possible sacrifice. kind of like that greedy man, dr. tiller, who continued to help women in need regardless of his personal safety.

Submitted by viv on June 3, 2009 - 2:37am.

In that case, are you out there promoting safer sex practices, protection, and birth control if religion has nothing to do with your pro-life stance? Are you out there protesting war and the death penalty? If "murder" bothers you so much, then what are you doing to stop gang violence? Are you going after drivers who hit and kill cyclists and then flee the scene?

There is a lot of murder to object to in the world.

I'm just saying.

Submitted by Lizzz on June 3, 2009 - 1:28pm.

you are utterly ignorant of facts. you are making up lies about late term abortion, so of course i assume you're lying about being liberal.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 3:06pm.

also, the 'don't condone' weasel words are weak. you don't actually care that he's dead.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 3:07pm.

also, the 'don't condone' weasel words are weak. you don't actually care that he's dead.

You hate puppies. You may say you don't, but any rational person knows you hate them. You can say whatever you want, but the fact remains - your halfhearted condolences to those families who have lost puppies are merely hiding the self-satisfaction of seeing another young dog dead.

I know this is the case, because I believe it. I may not be able to back it up, but that doesn't matter - your words ring hollow and you hate puppies.

Submitted by pro-life atheist is making a point to anonymous on June 4, 2009 - 3:00am.

Ridiculous analogy.

Submitted by Aunti on June 5, 2009 - 3:20pm.

Love the puppy analogy!

Submitted by hatmaker510 on June 5, 2009 - 6:10pm.

The point is not to demonize pro-lifers. The point is to show what sort of (mis)information is distributed by these particular prolifers --- and to show how the clear (and purposeful) use of that misinformation feeds their cause, and serves to demonize others --- who are operating under a different set of moral values, but with factual, medical backing.

The author of this article isn't making any unfounded claims. These people (in this specific pro-life org) actually distribute this specific training material --- filled with blatant lies. If you feel that fact demonizes this particular pro-life org --- well, these are their own words in their own material.

There are lots of pro-lifers out there who honestly believe that murder is wrong, that abortion is one example of murder, and that it is their moral duty to protest the practice. When a claim is simply made on moral grounds, it doesn't need any factual or medical backing -- but, obviously, this group feels that they need a whole, organized package of lies. These people go out of their way to distort the truth in order to sell their "moral" agenda, and those lies only serve to demonize the people on the other side of this issue. That is the problem, and that problem is actually DOCUMENTED in this article.

Submitted by Josh on June 4, 2009 - 10:42am.

WITH YOUR EXPLANATION IT SOUNDS AF IF YOUR FEeLING A LITTLE GUILTY. YOU ARE TO BLAME. ALL OF YOU "prolifers"

Submitted by Anonymous on June 4, 2009 - 11:38am.

What are you so defensive about?

You are the worst kind of antichoicer because you are so dishonest.

Your missive reeks with the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Nothing you have written is believable, including the claim you don't condone Tiller's murder.

Sounds more like you are thrilled.

Submitted by nanorich on June 4, 2009 - 3:58pm.

In medical terminology, all surgeries that are not urgently required within 24hrs of the medical assessment for surgery are "elective". Elective surgeries go on a waiting list to be scheduled according to their urgency category (say within 1 week, within 1 month or within 6 months) while true emergency surgeries jump the scheduled queue for the OR.

The term elective surgery does not mean "unnecessary" or "on a whim", and that has been explained to the heads of anti-legal-abortion groups many times over, yet they still repeat the lie to their followers. So which are you? One of the knowing liars, or merely someone who has believed the lies that you've been told?

Many life-saving operations are categorised as Urgent Elective Surgery because they are not emergency-right-now surgery,. Go get the handbook for any hospital's surgery department that explains how the waiting list works if you don't believe this.
* Organ transplants are scheduled Urgent Elective operations, not emergency-right-now surgery.
* Coronary artery bypass surgery is a scheduled Urgent Elective operation, not an emergency-right-now surgery.
* Surgery to remove cancerous growths is scheduled Urgent Elective surgery, not emergency-right-now surgery.

Late-term abortions of pregnancy are rarely required as emergency-right-now, but they are nearly always classified as Urgent Elective, and in cases where there is an emergency life threat then the surgeon has to be so focussed on saving the mother's life that there is no time to also preserve her future fertility (because these are almost always wanted pregnancies that have gone tragically wrong). Having an Urgent Elective termination performed by a skilled OBGYN allows that bit of extra time to preserve future fertility while aborting the current pregnancy.

Hey, but who wants women who really want a family to still be able to have more children even if one of their pregnancies goes horribly wrong, eh? Obviously not anyone who knowingly lies about what elective surgery truly is.

Submitted by tigtog on June 4, 2009 - 5:26pm.

I smell a smelly troll. Your judgment of Dr. Tiller as not being a hero is subjective. Others who received help and assistance in their time of need would say just the opposite. I think you are here to blame the victim and say that because he performed abortions, he deserved it --- and lying by saying you don't condone his slaying

I do not believe one word of what you have said.

Submitted by Aunti on June 5, 2009 - 3:15pm.

I'm commenting about the article, not the comment ...

I find it interesting that the very people that point the finger at hate are themselves hateful. Why must pro-choicers insist on using terms such as "radical right-wing hate groups," "anti-choicers," or "anti-choice extremists?"

What is so hateful in your minds about people who believe that the fetus in the womb is a living human baby that should be protected at all costs? I'm sure no one reading this would disagree with me that a baby already born should be protected, so why the demonization of those of us who believe the unborn should also be protected?

All the pro-lifers I know are very loving people. These creeps that take matters into their own hands and shoot doctors like Tiller have no place in the pro-life movement, and I think you all know this. However, you like to use this to demonize us. Why?

On another note ... All the pro-lifers I know would never judge a woman/family who had the extremely difficult choice of choosing between the life of the mother and the baby. However, in the United States, these situations are rare. For just about every other situation, adoption is a viable option for those who, for whatever reason, can't support a baby. There are waiting lists to adopt newborns! Why kill them!?!?

What pro-lifers adamently oppose is the wreckless termination of life out of convenience. From the comments made on this blog, it appears that many women who have had experiences with abortions would agree that the baby in the womb IS a baby. It is a life. For those who chose an abortion because it was a matter of life or death, I don't judge you. I don't think anyone in their right minds would. For those of you who regretted having the abortions and are seeking forgiveness, I hope there is some comfort in knowing you are forgiven. God forgives you!

It's my hope that next time, instead of demonizing us, you try talking to us.

Submitted by truthseeker on June 5, 2009 - 5:49pm.

"All the pro-lifers I know would never judge a woman/family who had the extremely difficult choice of choosing between the life of the mother and the baby."

Polls consistently show that a substantial number of those who identify themselves as ProLife want to ban ALL abortion including the ones that would save a mother's life. Approximately 10% of the total, about one-third of the ProLife side, are so fanatical that they will let women die.

Instead of protesting how unfair those here are and how we are mischaractering, you might have a conversation with the people on your own side of the discussion about that particular issue. Approximately 650 women die in this country every year from complications of pregnancy even though abortion is available to save others. Banning ALL abortion will increase that mortality rate 2000% by including at a minimum the 180,000 women who have ectopic pregnancies.

Submitted by crowepps on June 8, 2009 - 4:24pm.

I'm not understanding your math of 10% and one-third, but that is beside the point. Again, you need to understand motives. I can easily shoot back and say a majority (if not all) people who are pro-choice would be OK with letting a little unborn baby girl (or boy) die if the mother chooses this as an option.




Please don't try to take the moral high ground on this topic. You can't.




So I guess it's a matter of how you look at things. I would be willing to bet that all those people that say that abortion is unacceptable, even in the case of the life of the mother, are people who themselves would sacrifice themselves for the baby. I've spoken to my own wife about this. Without hesitation, she gave me her opinion before I had a chance to give her mine. She would not want to pro-actively kill the child to save her own life. She would prefer to leave it in the hands of God. You know what? I find that honorable, not detestable.




As you can see, I've already had this discussion with the people on my own side. Others have shared with me opinions similar to that of my wife.
>br>


So it's disingenous to suggest that 10% would "let mother die." It makes it sound like these people are monsters when, in fact, they're not. They're simply God-fearing people who have more faith in what God has done in their lives and can do in their lives than what man tells them.




As far as your statistics of the increased mortality rate if abortions were to be banned, must we go there? Look, I'm pro-life. I believe in doing everything we can to protect the life of the mother AND the baby, but when one looks at the millions of babies who have been aborted (killed) since Roe v. Wade, your argument of saving women's lives falls short and sounds insincere. What about the unborn girls who are aborted? Should we not have done everything we could to save their lives also?




The argument of whether it's a life or not, whether it's a baby or not in the womb is a tireless one, and it has been discussed over and over on these blogs. However, I have not had one pro-choicer tell me the baby or fetus or zygote or whatever you want to call it, isn't alive. Isn't that ultimately what this discussion is about? Saving lives? (Please don't compare a living sperm or unfertilized egg to a fertilized egg. Even though everyone will agree that there is a difference between gametes and fertilized eggs, I had one person on your side try to use this argument to suggest I didn't know the difference. Of course I do, and I would hope that everyone else who has had seventh grade life science would know the difference too.)




Food for thought: If the baby/embryo/fetus/zygote is alive, then what kind of life is it? Is it part of the mother or is it a separate, living being? (By separate, I'm not asking if it can live on it's own. I've already had to deal with this baseless argument as well. If we based human value on the ability to live without the need for support from others, the value of many people in nursing homes, emergency rooms, and, yes, even the children in our own homes, would drop to something sub-human.)




If we become a society that can determine when someone is or isn't human and if we become a society that determines when it is permissible for life to be terminated, we have truly become the most dangerous of societies.

Submitted by truthseeker on June 8, 2009 - 5:55pm.

Truthseeker, your post seems to me like a lengthy and pretty damned transparent attempt to justify the belief that, where a woman's life is threatened by pregnancy, she should be left to die. And I love the insistence that various pro-choice arguments are 'baseless', when a whole lot of your opinion seems to be based on your belief in your fictional sky-daddy. If you are credulous, irrational and superstitious enough to base your opinions on a dated and badly written book, there is no point in arguing with you, because one cannot counter irrational, unreasonable beliefs with logic or reason.

 

I don't believe for a second that you're remotely interested in our answers to your questions, except insofar as you want something against which to argue (and, I suspect, you're looking for a chance to preach religious mumbo-jumbo to the heathens).

 

Not. Interested.

Submitted by Emma on June 9, 2009 - 12:55am.

Emma, You sound so sad and terribly angry.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 13, 2009 - 7:03pm.

Do you think so? Because to me she is a calm rational response to someone who sounds irrational, dangerously delusional and, like the rest of you folks, so terribly, terribly brainwashed. 

 

 

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on June 13, 2009 - 8:05pm.

Where have you been Truthseeker all these years Dangerous!! This world is full of nothing but greedy,violent,sexist,abusive monsters! Killing machines! look at the wars the innocent people killed in wars! Look at the way women and animals are treated as property and with utter disrespect. Rapes murders child molesters, you think it is going to get any better HA think again. Why don't all the pro-life people start fighting for the lives of the ones who are already here. Maybe it would be nice to walk outside in the dark as a single women without an arsenal of weapons !!!!!!!

Submitted by Anonymous on June 11, 2009 - 1:59pm.

Truthseeker,
I realize I am a week behind this "conversation" but I wanted to respond anyway. First of all, thank you for spending the time to so eloquently explain your point of view. You made perfect sense and I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately, what is common sense to you and I is complete nonsense to most abortion advocates. This is why we need to stop spending our time trying to take the blinders off of their eyes and instead focus on our law makers. At this point in time our country is pretty evenly divided in terms of abortion rights (with pro-life views having a small advantage). WE NEED TO BE THE LOUDER HALF. We need to be relentless in our search and support for pro-life politicians. Of course we should still be vocal about abortion to family, friends, and neighbors but I truly believe we need to start rewarding our state and LOCAL pro-life politicians with massive support (both financial and otherwise). We've already seen even a small bit of pressure work on the President (Notre Dame). While his speech was far from pro-life, it was not nearly as pro-abortion as most abortion advocates had hoped for. The tide is beginning to turn and prayerfully it won't take even one more generation to repeal Roe V Wade completely. Thanks for being a voice.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 15, 2009 - 3:04pm.

At me about childbirth have passed perfectly because any doctor around was not, it is simple because they were prompt, all complications were already after I have given birth, but also they have been connected not with that, something not so, and with problems during pregnancy. And these doctors have rescued me, for what I am very grateful to them. As a result at me were that houses wish to receive. While childbirth goes well, full not intervention, and as soon as problems - a full set of medical assistance. An another matter, that knowing about the problems I have gone to maternity home, instead of to the house midwife. And here responsibility only mine.

Submitted by Barbie on July 17, 2009 - 7:26pm.

We do not call ALL pro-life individuals "radical hate groups" etc., only the minority of pro-lifers who ARE. They exist, and one of them murdered Dr. Tiller.

Most pro-lifers are well-meaning, honest people, who disagree with abortion on subjective moral grounds. I happen to agree that abortion is morally wrong, but that outlawing abortion will do no more to stop abortions from happening than the War on Drugs has eliminated drug abuse. This is my position, and I may be wrong. As a pro-choice, anti-abortion individual, I can certainly understand how each side of the debate feels that it has been demonized by the other. After all, I'm one of those anomalies in the middle that extremists on both sides just can't stand.

However, there are those out there who lie about the nature and motives behind abortion in order to further their goals of outlawing abortion. The end does not justify the means. Pro-choicers aren't fetus-hating monsters who love to bathe in the blood of the unborn, and saying they are is a lie. But some (not the majority by any means) pro-lifers deliberately spread lies that dehumanize abortion providers, making them sound as if they despise fetuses, despise human fertility, and want to destroy America's children. Any lie that dehumanizes the opposition is justification to kill by those who believe that lie. By painting Dr. Tiller as a monster, these pro-life extremists (and only the extremists) are guilty of deliberately provoking others to commit acts of terrorism.

Picketing OB/GYN clinics because you're against abortion is OK. Killing abortion providers, or even implying that killing abortion providers is OK, is very, very wrong. That's the difference between a pro-lifer and an anti-choice extremist. One is peaceful, the other violent.

Submitted by The L on June 9, 2009 - 12:36pm.

Ok, I'll accept your premise that it is only the EXTREMISTS who painted Dr., Tiller as a monster- a murderer..So if that is the case- we really need to get these EXTREMISTS off the TV - you should condemn the Bill O'Reillys, Anne Counters, Rush Limbaughs and most of the staff at FOX news. They have repeatedly characterized OB/GYN doctors who perform abortions as baby killers, murderers etc.
They are the extremists which we are talking about.
And I'm not even going to mention the Rick Santorums and other public officials, nor the Dobson's, Buchanan's etc.(let allone Randall Terry types)All of whom demonize these doctors as murderers. I definitely think we need to get these people out of public office and out of the pupits from which they spew their extremist hatred.

So if you are serious that this is just a few extremists, I would certainly like to hear a vocal condemnation of these most obvious extremists from the pro-life side.

Let's start with getting O'Reilly and Limbaugh off the air..

Submitted by Anonymous on June 11, 2009 - 5:34pm.

Try talking to you, huh?

I went one step further. I am a Planned Parenthood escort who found herself subjected to an unplanned pregnancy. I swallowed my pride and reached out to the pro lifers. I went to their crisis pregnancy centers. Know what I was offered? Diapers, formula, and baby clothes. THE EXACT SAME THINGS PLANNED PARENTHOOD PROGRAMS OFFER! They tried to tell me that my boyfriend should "find a couch to sleep on" (so much for Forgotten Fathers) and my pets (who by the way, my dead mother left in my care) were just to be given to the pound.

A few weeks before, Bella star Eduardo and his manager Leo had come to give a speech with pro lifers. I had briefly talked to him, and he said he would "give his life for me to see the truth" and that he would "do anything to help women choose life." Conveniently, I had gotten the contact info for his manager, Leo and contacted them when I found out I was pregnant. They did nothing. Hollywood stars with tons of money, and even they wouldn't step up. When I later asked other pro lifers why, they said I wasn't deserving of their help. So the fetus had to pay for my sins? It wasn't an individual at THAT point, nope, they saw it as only an extention of me.

I know first hand pro lifers are deceptive liars that will say anything to lure you in. I tried to be friends with several of them, but they quickly cut ties with me when I wouldn't convert to their way of thinking.

Submitted by Amanda on June 10, 2009 - 12:06pm.

Truthseeker said "Why must pro-choicers insist on using terms such as "radical right-wing hate groups," "anti-choicers," or "anti-choice extremists?" What is so hateful in your minds about people who believe that the fetus in the womb is a living human baby that should be protected at all costs?"

You are being disingenuous. If you haven't noticed, Truthseeker, the pro choicers use those terms because it is people on the pro choice side of the argument that have been getting murdered by people on the anti choice side. Can you point to me any incidents where a leader or highly visible "anti-choicer" has been murdered going about his legal business, because of his beliefs? I didn't think so. We don't hate "people who believe that the fetus in the womb is a living human baby that should be protected at all costs". You are entitled to your beliefs. What we hate is that your side is winning through terrorism, because that is the only what you can win. And terrorism usually only inspires more terrorism. And, we use the term "anti choice" because it more accurately reflects their agenda than the self-selected label, "pro-life".

Submitted by onefellswoop on June 15, 2009 - 6:47pm.

But I couldn't resist commenting. When we use the words "anti-choice" we are not talking about our pro-life neighbor who 'just doesn't think abortion is right,' (for the record, I don't think abortion is a 'good' thing either) we are talking about the people who use abortion as the cover story for what their movement is really about: being against sex performed for any reason other than procreation, and being against women in control of their sexual and reproductive health.

By your assertion that women abort out of 'convenience' I can tell that you are either not a woman, or are ignorant of the standing of living of most women who choose abortion. The "lists" you talk about of people ready and willing to adopt, are primarily middle class Caucasian families who (for the most part) want Caucasian babies. I'm not talking about your friend's sister's friend who adopted an African American child, I am talking about the majority. On the other hand, children of color are much more likely to be homeless or never adopted. The same people who screamed their heads off that these fetuses be allowed to mature into babies and be born, then systematically vote against any kind of health care or welfare systems that might help these children AFTER they born to parents who did not want them (most of the time because they could not afford them.) I can't be 100% sure you are a republican, but most pro-lifers are. As other commenters have said, it blows MY mind how you care about making sure these children are born, but then do nothing for them once they are living. It seems to me that bringing these babies into the world is the priority, regardless of what their standard of living might be.

It's not that we haven't tried speaking to you, we have, we have heard what you have to say, and we realize that it's the kind of propaganda cited in this article, and the lack of knowledge you have shown about why abortions happen at all that have lead to even more violence against people - not fetuses - living, breathing, fully-formed, already existing human beings, and the further persecution of women and their rights.

So my advice to you would be instead of praying for us and about abortion I would look up the facts, and speak to - not preach to - but actually speak to the women who have undergone or need to undergo this procedure. And if you really, truly want to reduce the number of abortions (as we desperately do) get your head out of the sand and join us in advocating for the widespread availability and knowledge of birth control.

Submitted by Jen K C on July 16, 2009 - 4:31pm.

Okay, quick question:



As an Atheist, on what basis do you define fetuses as "children"?



I agree, not everyone opposed to abortion is a right-wing lunatic (though, the more violent ones all certainly are, including the ones who stand outside of clinics for basically no other reason than to intimidate women and medical personnel), but I guess I'm just curious about how you're defining your terms here considering the way you've worded your post.



I mean, once you depart from scientific definition and reasoning, you start getting into the metaphysical and the subjective and the spiritual and you might as well go with religious bases for your position. Depending on how you're defining your terms, your perspective on this issue might not be as "Atheist" as you claim, and might be the result of some sort of spirituality, even a personal and individual variety, likely extended from more of a "gut feeling" uncomfortableness with the idea of abortion and less an objective or scientific analysis of all the elements involved.



Sorry, I don't mean to try to tell you that you don't believe what you actually believe, and it's not that there's anything necessarily wrong with believing what you want to for the reasons you have -- it's just that there's kind of a contradiction in the way you came flying in with guns blazing about how secular you are while at the same time using the phrase "these young children slaughtered" and I was wondering if you could clarify.

Submitted by J Crowley on June 7, 2009 - 12:13am.

It's stunning that these "religious" people can't wait to impose their medieval beliefs on those who aren't burdened with superstition and afraid of an invisible man in the sky. The planet is reaching the limits of sustainability and the breeders are determined to keep breeding and to see to it that all forms of birth control are made unavailable. Please, if you must, hold on to your beliefs but PLEASE stop imposing your simplistic mentality on the rest of us.

Submitted by LJR on June 8, 2009 - 6:48pm.

What bothers me most is Amanda's characterization of all pro life women as hating women and not caring about them. As a woman, I must hate myself if I am a pro lifer. Justice for All is a legitimate organization that does actually engage people in discussion. You may not like their positions, Amanda, but that doesn't mean that they are lying and that doesn't make them responsible for Tiller's murder.

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on June 3, 2009 - 2:05am.

Of course a woman can be a misogynist---she can put women into the category of "bad" women and exempt herself, and even her abortions, because that's different.  Clinic workers see this all the time.

 

"She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers.....

 

"The medical director of an Indianapolis clinic recalled one prospective patient who phoned to ask whether the clinic had a back door. He said no. How, she asked, could she get inside without being seen by fellow picketers outside? Pointing out that two orthopedists practiced with him, the doctor told the woman "she could limp and say she was coming to see the orthopods....." 

 

Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash."

 

I would dispute your definitions of "legitimate" and "discussion".  Justice For All can't picket on campuses and harass tender young women whose sexualities they are obessed with unless they  are "student" organizations.  Of course, a quick perusal of who is picketing on campus any given day shows they aren't student organizations, unless "middle aged white men" are representative of the student body.  In the local case of a Justice For All protest, the organization was registeted right before the application for a table was put in.  But the protesters---who had few or no students as protesters, though plenty of students protested them---got the best table spot on campus?  Why?  Well, terrorism works, I guess.  No one wants to incur the wrath of right wingers, because that's inviting harassment and vandalism into your life.  That's my guess.

 

Nor are they particularly interested in discussion.  I've never in my life seen such extensive political materials to give people to teach them how to advocate  for "their" opinions.  What's remarkable about reading this is that it's clear that anti-choicers need to spend a lot of time concealing their real views in order to lure people into arguments, where they then try to "trick" their marks into getting confused.  This isn't a legitimate debate technique.  In fact, it's what people genuinely interested in dialogue call "arguing in bad faith".  

 

Look, let's not play this game.  You know and I know that deceit is part of the pro-life M.O. That's why one of the strategies is putting up crisis pregnancy centers that look like clinics but aren't, in order to lure women in.  They then pretend they're there to help, and wait until they've got the woman isolated in a room and afraid to hit her with the scary anti-abortion, anti-contraception stuff.  

 

Attempts to dodge responsibility for this show the cowardice that is shot through the mainstream anti-choice movement, right up through Bill O'Reilly's weaseling inability to accept that dedicating 29 segments of his show to calling Dr. Tiller a Nazi who killed babies for fun and profit influences his audience, who he knows for a fact is fond of violence, since there's so much overlap between the anti-choice movement and the gun nut movement.  His segment where he dodged responsibility was mostly dedicated to insinuating that Dr. Tiller deserved it.

 

The assassin was in fact caught vandalizing clinics the day before, but the cops blew it off.  Why do you think that is?  Well, you know and I know that harassment of patients and vandalism of offices are such routine occurances that the cops can't even be bothered anymore.  By helping creating a violent movement that carefully toes the line for the real nutjobs to hang out in, you are responsible.  

 

The other anti-choice activists that were Roeder's friends and colleagues knew he was violent, but they didn't do anything about it.  Why not?  Well, I suspect it's that they're so used to men who get off on violent talk, who commit petty acts of violence, and who talk about the need to eliminate doctors that he didn't stand out as noteworthy.

 

Playing like this is an isolated event won't work.  This isn't the first time someone tried to kill a doctor.  This isn't the first time someone tried to kill this specific doctor.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on June 3, 2009 - 7:48am.

I'm a pro-choice gun nut.

Which is weird to say because I've never owned a firearm in my life. But I'm in whole-hearted agreement with a majority of my fellow Americans that every woman on earth should armed and trained in how to shoot.

I'm an advocate of gun ownership rights. I'm also a staunch defender of your right to decide if you want to keep your baby or not.

We may need those guns someday against a too-powerful church.

Submitted by Don on June 4, 2009 - 12:30pm.

females contribute to sexism all the time, to get into the boys club. you don't object to lying to women and PRETENDING to care? that tells us a lot about you.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 3:09pm.

You know, I perhaps will agree with you. For too paid attention, that the lonely woman transfers absence of the partner (not only, it is even not so much in the sexual plan), than the man and, moreover, looks socially defective not only in the opinion of the married girlfriends, but also in the opinion of own more difficultly (if certainly is fair in them will glance... As a whole, full discrimination of men to a sexual sign)))

Submitted by Ted on July 16, 2009 - 9:44pm.

As a woman, I must hate myself if I am a pro lifer.

 

No you don't. you just have to hate, demean and envy other women,

The notion that many women don't hate other women is easily debunked by anyone even mildly observant, had spent any time around conservative women or had even read or listened to what you folks have to say.

 

 

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on June 3, 2009 - 9:27pm.

I figure that any woman who thinks she should be in the position to force another woman to reproduce, can't be much of a feminist.

Frankly she isn't qualified to make those decisions for anyone else...

but you will note these women get all offended when they have to deal with who exactly they are affiliated with.

Self determination is pretty basic, and if you don't support it for other women, honey, you ain't a feminist.

I agree with you.

Submitted by nanorich on June 4, 2009 - 4:09pm.

Anti-choice women like yourself lie, manipulate, and try to control not only women, but the dialog about what women can do with their bodies. Women like yourself do not care about other women,( you have proven that time and time again, Progo, with your "my experiences are the only ones that matter" arrogant attitude that you have shown when you have posted on many of these boards and that I, and many others, have called you out on.) They and YOU are selfish, and have grandoise delusions and seem to live under some false, silly notion that if they weren't born, and their parent had chosen to have an abortion, the world would be so much worse off.

Submitted by JAN on June 5, 2009 - 7:10am.

Anonymous, you are being dishonest. George Tiller saved women's lives (because unless you're living in fantasy land, pregnancies sometimes do go wrong, and sometimes women die from it). He survived one shooting, was the subject of threats for years, and was eventually murdered. It wasn't as if he was living a fabulously safe existence as a result of the work he did.
And, um, the angry zealot? That would be the guy who just murdered a doctor. As far as I'm aware, Amanda isn't running around shooting people for disagreeing with her; it's the 'pro-life' people who are into that.

 

ETA: According to this article, Dr Tiller took patients who couldn't pay, so the claim that he was in it for the money is a vicious lie.

Submitted by Emma on June 3, 2009 - 4:49am.

Why aren't the PDFs of these pages posted? If the arguments are so deceptive and lie-filled, why not put them on display for all to see?

Submitted by JivinJ on June 3, 2009 - 7:01am.

JivinJ -

The PDF of the document in question is now linked in Amanda's post, and here (PDF) as well. My apologies for not having it up until now.

Brady Swenson, RH Reality Check

Submitted by Brady Swenson, RH Reality Check on June 3, 2009 - 8:31am.

The PDF is rather large, and it was bugging me, so I made a compressed version for you, if you're interested. (It's 40x smaller!)

Submitted by IvanM on June 3, 2009 - 4:03pm.

I've transferred the compressed PDF to our site and replaced the links in the post and my comment above to point to this much smaller version of the handbook.

Thanks so much!

Brady

Submitted by Brady Swenson, RH Reality Check on June 3, 2009 - 9:06pm.

Come on Brady--you say you posted the manual referred to in the article, but fully 100 pages of it aren't there. So much for my right to decide what it means for myself, huh?

Submitted by Anonymous on June 9, 2009 - 10:17pm.

Elective abortion ensures the equality of sexual freedom between women and men. There is no sacrifice too small in the pursuit of that equality. Obviously, any threat to reduce hard-won equal rights is repulsively abhorrent to feminists and they will fight with unbridled viciousness to keep those rights, no matter the cost or criticism.

Submitted by Mavrik on June 3, 2009 - 12:05pm.

Yes, those heinous women, thinking they ought to have rights, as if they were men or something. Sexual freedom and equality? The horror? What happened to the good old days when a woman took what she got and liked it? It just makes you want to spend your life under your bed, quaking in fear.

Submitted by junk science on June 3, 2009 - 12:17pm.

Amanda is calling anti-choicers on their dishonest rhetoric, and that is "unbridled viciousness". Anti-choicers call for the death of abortion providers and one actually went through with assassinating Dr. Tiller... what's that to you, then? Polite disagreement?

Insofar as it's actually possible to take someone who derides sexual freedom seriously, of course.

Submitted by XtinaS on June 3, 2009 - 12:48pm.

Mavrik does make a point. That is, if pro choice folks merely state the truth: that the right to an abortion is about women being equally free as men to have sex (that is with equal consequences) then the anti-choicers will have a very difficult time voicing appropriate opposition.

Submitted by Jilly on June 3, 2009 - 1:24pm.

Men don't get pregnant. Nothing equal about that!!

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 3:09pm.

And really, sexual freedom for women is just part and parcel of freedom in total.  But for anti-choicers, they get stuck on the sex part, and they freak out and can't get past it.  To important facts like sex is a part of human nature, people have always had it, women had it even when the chance of dying from it was so high, and so fertility control is just an important medical advancement.

 

It's fascinating to me that anti-choicers think nature is a trump card.  I doubt they're willing to put that one to the test, and give up not just antibiotics, but allergy medicine, air conditioning, and pasteruized food---and just take their chances in a world with no medical care, no basic improvements to shelter, and a diet consisting solely of what they can grow on their own land or hunt.  They wouldn't last a week.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on June 3, 2009 - 3:49pm.