RH Reality Check
Font Size: A |  A |  A

Don't Call It Murder

Pamela Sumners's picture

Don't call it murder. Call it an assassination. George Tiller was the fourth doctor who performed abortions to be targeted, stalked, and executed in the United States since 1993. If the Scott Roeder in custody is the same Scott Roeder who posted on Operation Rescue's website the thinly veiled invitation to OR's supporters to help him scope out the floor plan of Tiller's church, he may have had help with everything but pulling the trigger.  He pulled that trigger on the sixth anniversary of the capture of Eric Robert Rudolph, whose bomb at the Birmingham clinic contained five pounds of dynamite and hundreds of nails that killed a police officer and almost killed nurse Emily Lyons.   

Whether Roeder acted alone as a technical matter in pulling that trigger, he had the complicity of a fanatical fringe.  While the Reverend Joseph Scheidlers of this world appropriate the mantle of the Civil Rights Movement to cloak tactics never countenanced by that movement, telling us they act in "defense of the unborn," telling us they resist an American Holocaust, their democratic constitutionalists' robes are nothing but the emperor's new clothes.  When they were sued years ago for violent blockades and blitzes at the clinics, they responded in court papers that their assaults and harassment were merely "vigorous protests," "sidewalk counseling," "rescues," or "sit-ins."  Punishing them, they said, would set the precedent for chilling all social protestors, from Martin Luther King to PETA.  They conveniently forget that Dr. King's goal was to secure peoples' rights, not to block them from exercising them.   

Their public language, the language they use in court, is very different than the language they use for the troops.  Among the troops, a women's clinic is a "death mill" or "abortuary."  The escorts who help patients navigate the gauntlet of angry, abusive protestors to get inside the clinic are "deathscorts."  When the public relations antennae are down and the judicial ear is not listening, Joseph Scheidler vows to stop abortion "by any means necessary" and proclaims " a year of pain and fear" for anyone seeking or providing an abortion.  He touts a "pro-life Mafia" for which he once emblazoned a motel marquee "WELCOME PRO-LIFE ACTIVISTS-HAVE A BLAST" and passed out nametags with firecrackers on them to pro-life conference attendees-just after a spate of bombing plots and clinic attacks. 

Joseph Scheidler is not atypical of the leadership that the militant wing of the anti-choice movement has had for many years.  Randall Terry of Operation Rescue once led a demonstration on a Colorado clinic's premises during which he prayed for the doctor to be "executed." He repeated his prayerful threat over the radio three years later; two days after that broadcast, the doctor who replaced the assassinated Dr. Gunn of Pensacola was found murdered in Birmingham, with money in his pocket.  As for Scheidler, his own appearance at the same Colorado clinic was preceded by a brick through the window and a phone-jamming campaign orchestrated by one of his friends. 

The martial language is inescapable.  "We will win because we're on God's side.  It's a Holy War," Scheidler has said.  Operation Rescue literature has trumpeted, "We are among the front-line troops in the battle for life.  Together we will win!  We have an army of people.  The battle is raging...The Commander is calling most of us to the front lines." 

Eric Rudolph, too, esteemed himself a holy warrior, a good man who will be hailed as a hero by later generations.  He told the federal judge who sentenced him:  "I will be vindicated - my actions that overcast day in January 1998 will be vindicated.  As I go to a prison cell for a lifetime I know that I have fought a good fight.  I have finished my course.  I have kept the faith."  People like Rudolph and Roeder take their marching orders from the Scheidlers and Terrys of the world.  Dining on a diet of vitriol and jihad, these criminals mistake projectiles for political tracts.   

There are others behind them in the long ranks, the sort of people who think that if they send a letter to the clinic explaining why everyone there is going to hell along with the anthrax, it's just an expression of opinion.  It's just dissent, and besides, the purity of their principles gives them a moral exemption from the laws that bind the rest of us.  They will be vindicated. 

Forget blaming Bill O'Reilly for fanning the flames.  It is the rhetoric of the militant wing of the anti-choice movement itself that is the unindicted co-conspirator in Dr. Tiller's assassination.  

. . . . .
74 comments
Please login or register to post comments...

Here's the difference- most pro-lifers condemn both abortion and wanton murders like of Tiller as both heinous acts of murder.

Your side on the other hand make all pro-lifers out to be extremists for the actions of the very few, while you support the murders of babies on a daily basis in abortion clinics, including those partially born.

It is like the Nazis putting on trial folks for individual acts of murders in concentration camps, while murders are being done as mandated by the state on a daily basis.

The hypocrisy is on your side there, not ours.

And your appeal to King does not wash. King was for the civil rights of people but not at the expense of the rights of others. You, on the other hand, are for rights of women at the expense of the right to life of others, specifically the unborn. Last I check, rights to anything else are worthless without right to life.

When we get to the point where folks like you support the right to even the barbaric practice of partial-birth abortions, where no fair-minded person would deny those are indeed the most brutal forms of murder for innocent children, then we have fallen as a nation.

It takes a lot of militant mindset to condone this kind of stuff and mock those who fight against that.

Guess what? The pro-life movement has in common with the abolitionists in fighting against the idea of making any person property of another, whether it is a baby or a person on basis of his or her skin. Your side has more in common with the slaveowners who believe they have right to property over another human being as well as right to privacy to do whatever what they want with their property, wihtout government intervention.

And yes, even abolitionists have militants like John Brown.

The only ones not militant to you in the abortion debate are those who do not oppose abortion as murder. The moment folks mention the obvious, that it is murder, it becomes militant to you.

That is intellectually dishonest.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 12:00am.

I very much disagree with the fact that you are saying that "your side...make all prolifers out to be..." etc. Hi, aren't you just doing the exact same thing that you're saying we who are prochoice are doing by lumping all prochoicers into the same categories and belief systems?

YOUR assessment of the situation is what does not wash. When I am pregnant, that fetus cannot exist without me. If I die, the fetus dies. I stop eating, the fetus starves to death. I drink, the fetus gets fetal alcohol poisoning. The fetus cannot be separated from the woman who is pregnant with it. You are talking about slavery, in which one independently living, breathing, and thriving person exerted control over another independently living, breathing, and thriving human being. There is a HUGE difference there.

Submitted by Feminazi1980 on June 3, 2009 - 7:34am.
Most "condemnations" are basically reminders that murder is illegal, followed up by explanations of how the victim is burning in hell.  Tacking a disingenuous condemnation before returning to demonizing good people who help women isn't a real condemnation.  It's ass-covering, and sadly it works. 
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on June 3, 2009 - 8:05am.

Anon-that's what I'm saying, too. It's like blaming all Muslims and demanding that they stop being Muslims because of the 9/11 attacks, or blaming peace demonstrators for the recent murder of a solidor at a recruitment station.

"Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

Submitted by Progo35 on June 3, 2009 - 12:41am.

Is like blaming all Christians.  No one is blaming all Christians for this.

 

The analogy you're looking for is blaming militant Muslim groups such as the Taliban when terrorism occurs.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on June 3, 2009 - 8:07am.

It's like blaming all Muslims and demanding that they stop being
Muslims because of the 9/11 attacks, or blaming peace demonstrators for
the recent murder of a solidor at a recruitment station.

Fortunately for Christianity, the anti-abortion movement does not constitute the whole of Christendom. Just as your right wing opinions don't speak for all disabled people.

Likewise the violence and criminal activities of the anti-abortion movement are well documented, ongoing and number in the thousands.Your movement is based on lies and manipulation and fueled by hatred and false piety.  

 

 

 

 

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on June 3, 2009 - 5:05pm.

a rousing chorus of "Every Sperm is Sacred"? After all, it's a potential future human.

What the anti-choice bunch is actually in favor of are the "rights" of fetuses and a return to the days of coat hanger abortions, thus ensuring women "pay for their sins" Sigh...

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 6:06am.

Women can tell their horror stories about their third trimester abortions and how their wanted fetus died inside them, had severe unlivable malformations, parts of their brains missing, children raped by their fathers at 9 who needed an abortion because they would not survive birth, until they are blue in the face, and the anti-choice crowd does not care, does not hear, only believes what they think is right and that somehow, these poor suffering souls somehow did something to get God pissed to be "Punished" by God in such a way, and deserve whatever consequnces that God is trying to dish out, and that relieving the horrible sad burden of ending a wanted pregnancy that would never make it to birth or past it- is thwarting God's will. They do not care about women, whether they die from coathangers, back alley abortions, or a pregnancy that keeps them from getting cancer treatment, or septacemia (blood poisoning when a fetus dies inside of you, and starts to rot- my great grandmother almost died when her twin fetuses died inside her of her in her 8th month- and she had NO CHOICE or Dr. Tiller back then, no choice but to continue the pregnancy. She barely survived and was not quite right mentally for the rest of her life because of it.) These people hate women, women are chattel for men's needs, and if they don't like it, God will punish them. It has little or nothing to do with the fetus, it is women's very autonomy, women's sexual freedom, women's very freedom to live their lives and make choices, that fills them with such rage. You will notice that very, very few anti-choicers will take responsibility for their hate speech, that instigated the nut that killed Dr. Tiller. If they did, it would be admitting that women deserve respect for the decisions that they make about their bodies, and their pregnancies. It would be admitting that women are (gasp!) people. Somehow, in all of their talk of God there is something missing- real empathy and compassion for what a woman faces when a pregnacy goes terribly wrong. They would rather be right. Women to them are dispensible, but their fetuses are not. Because "God" said so. This is typically true for most Catholic anti-choicers, but some other denominations are just as guilty. These people ARE the American Taliban, they are American terrorists. The links to Operation Rescue that this nut was tied to, are coming out more and more.

Submitted by JAN on June 3, 2009 - 7:39pm.

It is simple as an eternal payment for sins, think everything but to you never to guess everything, it simply it is not given, as speak "is not present in our scenario".

Submitted by Art Architech on July 15, 2009 - 5:19pm.

Tiller was murdered by a fanatic who found common cause with the leadership of the anti-choice movement. On a Post-It note on the seat next to him when he was captured was the cell phone number of Operation Rescue West's Cheryl Sullinger. Sullinger herself was convicted of being the mastermind of a clinic bombing plot in California.

Operation Rescue West's Troy Newman used his "Truth Truck" to repeatedly blockade a peace march of mostly Mennonites in Newton, Kansas, weeks before Bush's genocidal invasion of Iraq.

ORW lost its tax-exempt status because it used its enormous donations from the gullible to campaign for the likes of Phill Kline. It paid its staff in "gifts" so it and they supposedly weren't required to pay taxes. It bought properties so they could live in luxury without paying rent.

One of its tactics is to accuse those victims whom it attacks of assault themselves. It provokes police intervention and then files endless suits soliciting nuisance settlements paid for by taxpayers.

Don't let these hypocrites distance themselves from their shooters, their bombers, their "anthrax" mailers, their assailants of women patients and their clinic escorts. They are not an abberation. They are and will continue to be the leadership.

Submitted by Fred on June 3, 2009 - 6:09am.

At the vigil for Dr. Tiller in Wichita, the Phelps clan were protesting with their "God Hates Fags" placards and hymns commonly reserved for desecrating the funerals of deceased soldiers. Joining them celebrating Tiller's assassination was Mark Holick, the defrocked fundamentalist minister who spends his time ranting about Obama and gays, when he's not urging mahem through his billboards and speeches and fascist sermons.

Submitted by Fred on June 3, 2009 - 6:16am.

Those men don't represent anyone, and certainly not the pro-life movement. They pickted Jerry Falwell's funeral, and think Billy Graham is going straight to hell for goodness sake. Don't associate anyone with them!

Submitted by Timothy on June 5, 2009 - 1:57pm.

What advice would these anti-abortion people give the parents of an 9 year old girl who hid her pregnancy until it "showed" in the 6th month. Would they force this little girl to have this life-threatening full term birth??

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 7:14am.

The answer to your question about whether anti-abortion activists want a 9-year-old to carry a pregnancy to term is of course "YES!" The development of that fetus is way more important to them than the life of a still-developing young girl who was raped. For some reason to them potential persons in the womb are more valuable than actual persons who are pregnant. If you asked them, they would tell you that the 9-year-old clearly did something to "deserve" the punishment of pregnancy and it's God's will that she suffer until she gives birth to a baby she never wanted. They don't care what 9 months of pregnancy will do to her still-developing body or her psyche. The life of that fetus is more valuable than the life of that little girl.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 10:29am.

But Tiller refused to report the crimes against his underage patients to the police. I never understood this. Why not report child rape?

Submitted by Ina on June 3, 2009 - 7:09pm.

I'd really like to see a link to a credible reference that has any evidence of this. It is illegal to not report child rape if you have reasonable evidence that it occurred and if there is one thing that was true about Tiller, it's that he operated within the law. If he hadn't, he'd have been shut down years ago by anti choice zealots.

Submitted by ks on June 5, 2009 - 10:26pm.

anti-abortion people who support this type of killing are to e blamed

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 10:18am.

Yes, let's talk about intellectual dishonesty. The glaringly misguided and offensive comparison between the anti-choice movement and the abolitionist movement is the epitome of dishonesty. Dishonest because the foundations of abolitionism (the right to self-ownership, to move freely and be in control of one's future, to expect to live with some level of dignity and respect) are in fierce opposition to the anti-choice position. Yes, abolitionists would oppose making one person the property of another. And yet the anti-choice movement is based on the idea that women's bodies are not our own, that we do not deserve the dignity and respect of being allowed to decide our own futures. The irony, of course, is that the "pro-life" movement is a direct affront to human life, a war against women's lives and the people who dedicate themselves to preserving those lives. For anti-choicers to mask their hate in the language of social justice is an outrage. They would take the lives of compassionate doctors and call it justice. They would harass women as they walk quietly through the clinic doors and say it is morality. They would fan the flames of terrorist action and cry innocence. So yes, let's talk about dishonesty. Anti-choicers can continue to call us Nazis as they slather propaganda across America's billboards and aim their guns at our clinic doors. We will continue to talk about social justice as we provide compassionate care and fight for women's legitimate participation in an equal society. We will use our voices and our intellect, rather than guns and ugly rhetoric meant to prey on the weak -- that is what Dr. King and Dr. Tiller would have wanted.

Submitted by plsweet on June 3, 2009 - 12:28pm.

I completly agree! O'Rilley, as any other person in this country, should be responisble for his words, and his words obviously do kill!

Submitted by Galactica on June 3, 2009 - 12:44pm.

I saw how quickly anti-choice commentators leaped on the sad case in Arkansas to deflect attention from themselves. Two days after Dr. Tiller's murder, they were saying: "Unless you blame the anti-war movement for the murder of this Army recruiter, you cannot blame us peaceable pro-life folks for the actions of unhinged lone wackos who bomb clinics and shoot doctors." So let's compare. Crowds of protestors blocking every Army recruitment center, telling would-be soldiers that they are killers? Newly signed-up soldiers targeted for harassing phone calls because they signed up? Recruitment centers all over the country required to hire security because of all of the acts of vandalism. Recruitment centers in most counties closed because of the acts of vandalism and fears for safety? Recruiters wearing bullet-proof vests so they wouldn't be shot? Leaders of anti-war groups referring to Army recruiters by name and calling them monsters and killers who were responsible for the deaths of thousands? Threatening "white powder" letters sent to recruitment offices? Recruitment offices bombed? Multiple Army recruiters killed in the past decade? In fact, consider that none of this happened even though millions of people passionately opposed the war in Iraq. All the anti-choice forces have left is an implausible deniability.

Submitted by Penstemon on June 3, 2009 - 2:29pm.

Everything you said was true about recruitment centers. How about those sicko peacenicks with the signs that read "A good soldier is a dead soldier"? How would you like it if we painted all the anti-war people with the same brush as we would paint them with?

Yes, YOU anti-war people called OUR President a terrorist. You called our troops terrorists. You called them out by name (remember General "Betray us"?).

The last time an abortionist was shot dead was in 1998. 11 years ago. MORE than a decade ago. I don't know where you get your info from.

According to the latest zogby poll, more than half of Americans consider themselves pro-life and more than 7 out of 10 are against late term abortion!

CAN you imagine if we were all 'extemists'? This nation would be a very dangerous place!

Submitted by BillyKess on June 3, 2009 - 4:52pm.

I don't know where you get your info from.

 

 Here is a good place to start for information about clinic violence

and 

here is what late term abortions are about. 

Those who mislead others into believing that women can and do have late term abortions for frivolous reasons should rot in hell.

 

 

The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

Dr Warren Hern, MD

Submitted by colleen on June 3, 2009 - 5:15pm.

New details are now coming out that Tiller's killer was not only a loner not connected to any pro-life groups, but that he was also mentally insane. He had mental problems.

Now, not for nothing, but maybe we should cut the guy some slack and not be so judgemental here. After all, many people get depressed. Look at that woman in Texas who drowned her 5 kids in the bathtub. Remember her?

Remember how so many feminists were defending her actions because she had post pardum depression or something like that?

Well come on now. In the spirit of equality amongst the 2 genders, let's give Tiller's killer the same compassion and sympathy. After all, who are we to judge what a person does when they are suffering from depression?

Submitted by BillyKess on June 3, 2009 - 4:45pm.

One, I would love to see these cites about this guy's mental health and not having any connections to radical anti-choice groups, especially with the one woman's phone number in his car. Either way it does NOT excuse either his behavior and perhaps implicates the radical anti-choicers even MORE because their irresponsible rhetoric about Dr. Tiller affected someone with mental issues. There is no doubt that the suspect visited Operation Rescue sites and posted there, and therefore read the crap they spew.

Two, equating clinical depression with post-partum psychosis shows incredible ignorance about both conditions. What, do you think women get a "free pass" for bad behavior because they happen to be the only ones who can GET post-partum psychosis? Post-partum depression is very serious; post-partum PSYCHOSIS like what Andrea Yates experienced is literally insanity, like any other psychotic state. Clinical depression does not equate psychosis. I have Major Depressive Disorder... and it doesn't affect my ability to know right from wrong which is the definition of insanity used by the courts.

Submitted by TheRealistMom on June 3, 2009 - 7:32pm.

* More than 1/2 of Americans consider themselves pro-life. Can you imagine the chaos and disorder if we were all extremists like this guy who killed Tiller? Oh my my.


* The anti-war crowd is a lot more radical and a lot more dangerous than the pro-life crowd is. (by the way it's pro-life, not anti-choice. Pro-life - as opposed to pro-abortion) - so calm down. This is not a "string of violence" here. The last time an abortionist was killed was 11 years ago.


I was being sarcastic. Of course I don't think this monster should get off. He committed murder and he should be tried accordingly.


However, Yates should have also been sentenced to life without parole. How can ANYONE make excuses for a woman who kills her 5 children like that?


And what else just happened... another woman tosses her child from a bridge last week.


Tell me something. Why is it women seem to kill their children? I mean, men do it, too. But when a child is murdered by their own parent, it is usually the mother. Men commit murder,too, but it's usually not their own kids. Mothers who kill their children. Why is it?


I think it is all part of this pro-abortion crowd making people assume it's OK to kill the unborn child - so why not kill the child after it's born, too?


Sounds crazy? No crazier then people like you blaming Bill O'Reilly for Tiller's killing.

Submitted by BillyKess on June 3, 2009 - 8:42pm.

You are sadly mistaken to claim that more women murder their own children than do men. Women commit drastically fewer crimes, across the board, than men except for two: shoplifting and murder of their own children. Sadly, your spew is nothing less than I expect from a terror-apologist pro-liar.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on June 4, 2009 - 12:16am.

The anti-choice extremists are using what happened at the Army recruiting center to deflect attention off themselves. Case in point, a poster on the Augusta Chronicle forums named carcraft, who posted this nonsense on Tuesday morning:

Did any one notice that a member of the religion of peace shot up an Army recruiting center and killed a young man out of boot camp? Obama has not been nearly as saddened as by the death of Tiller. The young man killed only voluntered to defend America, Tiller was killing babies...

These anti-choice leeches will do anything to deflect attention away from their terroristic actions.

Submitted by Jovan Byars on June 3, 2009 - 4:46pm.

killing an unborn infant just days away from the due date just because the mother was having "emtional stress" is one of the sickest, cruelest, hideous, most selfish acts of terrorism I know of.

Submitted by BillyKess on June 3, 2009 - 4:55pm.

... it would be illegal. No doctor would perform that procedure.

However, a woman who was suffering from a psychotic break or suicidal ideation might need a late term abortion. The exceptions to allow this are for the life AND HEALTH of the mother and mental health is JUST as much health as toxemia or cancer. However, that doesn't mean a woman can go into a doctor at 38 weeks and say, "I'm really bummed. Can I have an abortion?". Nor WOULD THEY. People who think that occurs apparently see women as horrible beings instead of real people.

Submitted by TheRealistMom on June 3, 2009 - 7:36pm.

BillyKess, why do you keep lying? Is it some sort of pathology? All over the internet at the moment, there are accounts of women who needed - yes, needed - late term abortions because of severe foetal abnormalities and/or because their lives were in danger. Why don't you go and read them, and then explain to me why these women were wrong in deciding to terminate. Do not come back and lie about women getting bored one day in the eighth month of pregnancy and terminating for fun, or women terminating because they were having a bad day. You are showing your abject ignorance and loathing for all women.

 

Post partum psychosis is a legitimate medical/psychiatric diagnosis. It is a diagnosis that is exclusive to women, because women are the only ones who give birth. If you bothered to look it up, which I'm sure you won't, you would know that, when psychotic, one is not in touch with reality and cannot tell right from wrong. If you have any evidence that George Tiller's murderer was psychotic, please do share with us.

 

What is it with anti-choicers and lying??!! It's almost like they know their arguments cannot stand on their own merits, so they need to make stuff up in a really pathetic and unsuccessful attempt to sound credible. Unfortunately for them, their ignorance, stupidity and hatred for all women is painfully evident in the stupid stories they make up.

Submitted by Emma on June 3, 2009 - 9:07pm.

Emma, there is no excuse for murder. Period. OK? Stop making excuses. You pro-abortion women scare me. What the hell is so empowering and liberating about taking the life of an innocent unborn child who can't even fight back?

That is the bottom line here. And that is no lie.

The only lies I see here are that the pro-life crowd are violent extemists. You take one nut, and you use him to paint all of us with the same brush.

You really think the average American Joe and Jane is buying this? They're not. Matter of fact, more than half of Americans now consider themselves pro-life. So welcome to the minority, miss. You're now in it.

And that's no lie. That's coming from a zogby poll. A reliable source just like USA/gallop.

Submitted by BillyKess on June 3, 2009 - 9:12pm.

I'm not American, mister, so American public opinion isn't particularly relevant to my life.

 

And I guess your response means that you don't actually need to know why women have late terminations, or what post-partum psychosis actually is. I mean, why would you actually need to know what you're on about in order to make vile, misogynistic judgments, right? You can just lie, like all anti-choicers do. Your obvious loathing for all women is showing, Billy, right down to your condescending reference to me as 'miss'.

 

Your previous comments seem to suggest you're pro-war, Billy. How many Iraqi foetuses do you think have been slaughtered? Or do they just not count?

 

I don't get why you lot insist on trolling here. Wouldn't you be better suited to somewhere like Free Republic, where the wingnuts gather?

Submitted by Emma on June 3, 2009 - 9:41pm.

And you're not wingnuts over here? I will bet my last dime that 19 out of 20 people who read and write here are of the left wing. The other 5% are probably blocked after a while or have their posts removed or are just bullied and intimidated from posting.

Every time I start posting here, I do so with most respect in the beginning. I simply post my opinions about abortion. And before long, I am being called names like anti-choice zealot and woman-hating extremist and now - I am even partly to blame for Tiller's murder.

I'm just a guy with an opinion. And my opinion is now American mainstream according to zogby. And before you go into that whole anti-man thing, I will have you know that most of the women I know are pro-life, too.

Submitted by BillyKess on June 3, 2009 - 9:56pm.

Yes, I am left wing. Is this a problem for you?

 

Oh god, and here we go with the 'zomg you're anti-man!!11' stuff. My antipathy toward you is personal; nothing to do with your being male. :) Thankfully, the men in my life are pro-choice leftists, like me. I also don't particularly care about the views of 'most of the women [you] know', just as I'm sure you're not especially interested in the beliefs of the men I know. If you behave like a misogynist, I will call you out on it; I'm not going to apologise for that.

 

And again, American public opinion is not relevant to my life, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

Submitted by Emma on June 3, 2009 - 10:11pm.

If a mother's health was at risk because of a pregnancy in ANY stage wouldn't the procedure be done in a hospital? Abortion clinics are not for health, they are for convenience.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 9:37pm.

Yes, Anonymous, all the women at this site were just terminating for fun. But you wouldn't want to actually know what you were talking about, would you?

Submitted by Emma on June 3, 2009 - 9:55pm.

If a woman has postpartum psychosis, and is truly psychotic, do we want that woman making decisions about the life of her child, born or unborn? "When psychotic, one is not in touch with reality and cannot tell right from wrong." So how can we assume her decision to abort(kill) her baby was the right choice?

Submitted by roger d on June 7, 2009 - 10:57am.

A woman can't have "post-partum psychosis" unless she is... I'll spell it out slowly here... IN POST-PARTUM. That means she has RECENTLY GIVEN BIRTH. It is a rare escalation of post-partum depression, a depressive condition resulting from the hormone fluctuations and stress after birth.

A woman who has an abortion is not "post-partum" nor are they "killing their baby". If they were psychotic in any way it would not be a "post-partum" condition and any legitimate physician would not perform the surgery on her as she would be unable to give informed consent.

Submitted by TheRealistMom on June 7, 2009 - 11:41am.

I only brought up the subject of postpartum psychosis because it looked like "Emma" was using it as an excuse to abort(kill) a baby. Perhaps I took her comments out of context. I agree that for the life of the mother the baby should be aborted(killed), if that is her choice. I'm sure that the thought of Mr. Tiller aborting(killing) thousands of babies every year drove Mr. Roeder crazy and so he made the choice to abort(kill) Mr. Tiller. Maybe he was in such a mental state that he should not have been allowed to make that decision. The same could be said for a woman having a baby.

Submitted by roger d on June 7, 2009 - 3:40pm.

Unbelievable that we actually need to spell out the fact that post-partum psychosis occurs post-partum.

 

 

Roger - it is not an 'excuse'. I was attempting to inform BillyKess that post-partum psychosis (a) is different from post-partum depression; and (b) means that someone is not in touch with reality. That is what psychosis is. It's just fact. If you have a problem with the diagnostic label, take it to the APA.

 

It's also incredibly pathetic, cheap and unbelievably stupid to suggest that the existence of post-partum psychosis is a reason to illegalise abortion. I'm almost speechless at the amount of stupid in your comment, Roger. It was an almost literal *head-desk* moment.

Submitted by Emma on June 9, 2009 - 10:18am.

I was shocked and horrified to read of the death of Dr Tiller. Can't something be done to close down groups such as Operation "Rescue" if they persist in spewing hate-filled rhetoric? It seems to me that freedom of speech is allowed to go too far sometimes. Here in New Zealand Operation "Rescue" never really got going because the police refused to tolerate them and would have been even less likely to if they had been actively threatening people's lives.

I would also like to ask BillyKess for facts to back up his allegations, not just more allegations from antilife "literature".

Submitted by anniK on June 3, 2009 - 8:56pm.

at the deaths that the Unabomber was driven to and the damage ELF and ALF caused by the hate-filled, crazy rhetoric that the enviromental-patient groups spew!!!

I demand the following groups get shut down as well:

  • the EPA
  • Greenpeace
  • Sierra Club
  • Boomerang (cable channel that carries Captain Planet)

more to follow.....

Submitted by Frankie the Fetus on June 3, 2009 - 9:29pm.

Awesome analogy! And not to mention, all these groups are LIBERAL LEFT-OF-CENTER.

Submitted by BillyKess on June 3, 2009 - 9:31pm.

Please, tell me just how many followers of those groups have maimed and murdered other people?


You misogynist terror-apologizers really are lunatics. 

Submitted by BJ Survivor on June 4, 2009 - 12:24am.

I disagree with the characterization that all anti-abortion/prolife people are in favor of killing abortion doctors. That in and of itself goes against the very premise of being "pro life". I am pro life and as such, I am also against the death penalty. Personally I would like to see someone who has murdered and been convicted in a court of law have to pay for their crimes, it also gives them a chance to seek forgiveness not just for themselves, but to the families of their victims.

I had an abortion, against my will, with an ex husband who did not want children. He found a complicent doctor who agreed to drug me up and get me an abortion. Where is the justice for me? I felt guilty for 20+ years over this incident. I have fought against people like Dr. Tiller who have no moral compass and who certainly, despite being in church, can't possibly serve the same Jesus Christ that is my lord. My Lord is for life, not murder, including the unborn.

Submitted by Anonymous on June 3, 2009 - 9:36pm.

Dr Tiller wasn't convicted of anything.

 

Can you spare us the Jesus-my-sky-daddy stuff? It's tedious.

Submitted by Emma on June 3, 2009 - 10:01pm.

I want to post one more thing in relation to Tiller and I think I speak for the mainstream pro-life movement when I say this...

We - as pro-life people - do not approve of what happened in Witchita, Kansas on Sunday. As pro-lifers, we were hoping for a much better outcome. For Tiller to see his wrongs and have a change of heart and convert to our side. As Roe did of Roe v Wade.

What a wonderful thing it would have been to see George Tiller come to his clinic one morning a changed man. Announcing to his staff that he will no longer be performing any more termination proceedures. It could have happened. It might have happened.

Almost like the magic we see each Holiday Season when we watch "A Christmas Carol". Seeing Scrooge that Christmas morning as a changed man always leaves a lump on my throat.

It is yet another fact that more people go from being pro-abortion to pro-life than they do the other direction. There has also got to be a reason for that.

Jesus would never approve of abortion.

Submitted by BillyKess on June 3, 2009 - 9:48pm.

It's a little late for backpedaling. You and your fellow anti-abortion wanna-be terrorists have already implied that Dr. Tiller had it coming.  Why, all over Faux News and the Internet "pro-lifers" are coming out of the woodwork to do their happy dance over the cold-blooded murder of this courageous man. His assassination was murder, while the surgical expulsion of zygotes, embryos, and fetuses simply is not. Murder is not legal. Abortion is.

 

Dr. George Tiller was a feminist of deep conviction. There was no chance that he would ever become a misogynist terror-apologizer like you and your vile ilk. 

Submitted by BJ Survivor on June 4, 2009 - 5:31am.

I'm making a statement and will probably hear from some of you, but I am spiritual (some of you will care, some not) and living the path I'm supposed to.
At 17 I had an abortion. I had broken up with a physically, emotionally and verbally abusive man. I could not care for a child and did not feel that I could provide the support at 17 that I could at a later date. Now, at 28, I know I was right. My friends took me to a "crisis pregnancy center", unbeknownst to us that it was somewhere where I was cajoled, criticized and demeaned. I ended up at a Planned Parenthood where I got honest medical information instead of a stick to pee on and damning literature. I had an abortion the next week. I now have a good job and am getting a graduate degree. I have always been pro-choice and was grateful the services were there when I needed them. I offer no apologies for this choice and have no regrets nor offer any explaination for review, knowing now at 28 what I didn't know at 17. I made a choice that was best for me. That must be good enough.
My God is love and she is all things working toward my highest good. I don't need badly pulled, out of context bible quotes to guilt myself and I don't need others to do it for me. Anti-choice is a affirmation that increases conflict, not peace. I will not be a part of that.
I had an abortion and I am a healthy, happy individual who works to keep abortions safe, legal and rare through honest sex education and compassion. My abortion and the doctor who did it made this possible. I thank him for that.

Submitted by gradstudent81 on June 4, 2009 - 1:07am.