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Is this Guy Serious? Steve Waldman Debates What Bristol Should Have Been Forced to Do

Jodi Jacobson's picture

Can all the male pontificators on women's reproductive choices just stand back a bit, please?

The latest example of male pontificators sitting in judgment on women's choices in regard to marriage and childbearing is Steve Waldman on BeliefNet.  Waldman makes a rash of judgments about Bristol Palin's decisions to keep rather than give her baby up for adoption, and her decision to break off her engagement.  While I realize men are part of the equation here at the "social conversation level," it feels more than a little frustrating and also very patronizing to have a constant stream of upper-class (mostly-but-not-all white) guys pontificating--and tripping over themselves with contradictions in the process--on what women should do about a pregnancy.

First, he asks if Sarah Palin and her husband should have "required" Bristol and former fiance Levi Johnston to seek marriage counseling before breaking up.

1) What is the obligation of a couple to try to make a marriage or a relationship work? I'm dying to know: did Sarah Palin require that they get marriage counseling before breaking up?

2) If a mother chooses to carry a baby to term, under what circumstances should she consider putting him up for adoption?

On the first point: If they realized jointly or she or he realized separately that they did not want to be married, why would they go to marriage counseling?  Marriage counseling is for people who want to be married to each other, or are married to each other and want to work out problems.   Not for people who have decided, "hey, I don't want to be with you," or "I don't love you," or "this is not right for me" or whatever the reason.  Is Waldman suggesting--inherently--that shotgun marriages are the way to go?  It was clear from the beginning that this was not necessarily a "match made in heaven."  So it is no shocker to the rest of us that this did not last.  In any case, it's Bristol's choice.

But Steve Waldman is "dying to know."  Why is this his business?  Could this be any more intrusive?  I may not like Sarah Palin's politics (I don't) but I respect, honor and defend her--and Bristol's--rights to privacy.   Why do we need the neighborhood busybody involved?

And what is with all the assumptions about what did or did not happen?  What does Waldman know about what has transpired in the interim?  What does he know about Bristol and Levi's relationship?  He assumes, presumably without evidence given his own question, that Bristol does not know what is good for her in breaking off the engagement (she obviously does not want to marry this guy), and also assumes that no discussion on this issue has taken place within the Palin family.  Where does he get that from?  He further assumes that any marriage is better than no marriage for "the child."  This is not for him to decide and is not borne out by evidence.  Children that grow up in homes with conflict and unhappiness are no better off and can be much worse off than children who grow up in single parent households, especially those run by functional mothers with extended family support. 

And part of being a functional adult means taking care of yourself and your emotional health first and foremost and having the maturity and personal strength needed to care for a child.  Bristol appears to have her head on straight.  From what little I have seen of her, she seems to be saying "I am in charge of my life, these are my decisions, I know what I am doing, and let's move on." Why this constant vigilance about her decisions?  Is it so hard to treat her as the functional young woman she appears to be?

Waldman then goes on to make the same mistake most male pontificators do when they talk about women, pregnancy, abortion, or adoption.  He "assumes" the woman or her family just have not considered all the options, and very helpfully suggests what Bristol should be thinking.

He states:

"Seriously, I don't know when adoption is the right approach and I'm not trying to cast aspersions at Bristol's suitability. But it seems that a decent argument can be made that when you have someone who is a) unmarried and b) a teenager, that those would be the circumstances in which putting a child up for adoption ought to be considered. So yes, I would ask the same question about African American unwed teen mothers, too."

Does he know, perhaps through a special Google Earth listening device aimed at the Palin home, that adoption was not "considered?"  Even if it was, does he then have the right to question Bristol's own right not to give her child up for adoption?  Why is it that people feel so free to "assume" women just haven't really thought through all their options, the ethics, their own moral position, the consequences, what is good for them and their own families?  If someone chooses abortion, the "judgmentalists" assume they simply did not consider all their choices (you could bring the baby to term and keep it!  you could give it up for adoption!......gee, really?).  Now, if someone does bring a pregnancy to term and decides to keep their own baby, the judgmentalists are going to question that decision?

If Bristol had gotten pregnant and had an abortion, and had that leaked to the press during the campaign, the election would have been over long before the Katie Couric interview hit YouTube.   Bristol made the choice--her choice I presume from what she says--to continue the pregnancy and have a baby.  Why does Waldman think he has a right to publicly to sit in judgment on whether, when, and whom she marries?

Can the men not involved in Bristol's life step back and let her make her own way?  Respect and recognize her moral agency as a woman and a mother? Letting Bristol exercise her own judgment about her life and her baby would be a whole heckuva lot better for Bristol and her child than having play-by-play judgement calls and analysis on BeliefNet from a referee not anywhere near the field of play.


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91 comments
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out of the room screaming now
I can no longer take this paternalistic BS

Submitted by Anonymous on March 13, 2009 - 8:13pm.

out of the room screaming now
I can no longer take this idocy

Submitted by Anonymous on March 13, 2009 - 8:57pm.

posting
I'll quit now-promise

Submitted by Anonymous on March 13, 2009 - 8:59pm.

Not to worry, A. You've expressed what we all are thinking.

I dunno where the Bible Thumpers think their authority to butt into the personal relationships of private American citizens comes from...but these folks also ought to remember their rabid support for the 2A...as Sarah may go all Alaskan Grizzley Grandma on their sorry asses. I would, and these days, I'm a flaming commie.

Submitted by ahunt on March 13, 2009 - 9:54pm.

These are the same people [the ones who think they have the right to "butt into the personal relationships of private American citizens"] who will, with their next breath, go on a rant about "big government," "too many government regulations," etc.

Are they just too stupid to see how inconsistent they are?

Submitted by Anonymous on March 15, 2009 - 9:43pm.

Boy oh boy do I agree

I have been waging a correspondence campaign with my two state reps.Who, of course, haven't bothered to respond to me. The campaign prmises of my reps was actually admirable (in my opinion - libertarian leaning that I am):

Less government
Get government out of health care
Don't infringe civil liberties
Don't invade privacy
Protect rights
Individual responsibility

But of course reality is different than rhetoric- so see what you think.

This was their first legistive action- despite record budget deficits and cutbacks all over the state- their first priority was:

You are right-here's what they decided was important:

24 hour waiting period for abortions (I live in Arizona and distances can be very great- so this is a major and often costly restriction)
Legislative mandates for discolsure before abortions (very misleading and just down right false disclosures)
Allowing lawsuits if these "diclosures" weren't provided "properly" (any one listening in the plaintiff's trial bar association???? Of course they're listening- this is a gold mine!!!)
Definiton of birth control and emergency contraception as abortion
Defining an egg as an "unborn child"
Granted any health care worker ( including janitors) the right to refuse to provide any reproductive item that they morally object to (note they extended the right of conscience ONLY to birth control and abortion- those health care workers/employees that have a moral objections to any other medication- well- that's just too bad).

Ah, but they are paying attention to big government and lower taxes- they are cutting child care facilities, child protection, legal resources for child support from errant fathers, education- need I go on?

Submitted by Anon on March 16, 2009 - 12:24am.

Wow...you people can't imagine the number of children that I have slaughtered over the years that I have just thoughtlessly disposed of when I threw away my feminine hygiene products.

Yeah, I know, that's kind of gross, but I had to be gross to illustrate my point. Does that mean that every time a guy, um, has some "alone time," he's killing babies, too? NO...just another example of the rampant sexism in our society. Women are the only part of the equation who are guilty in "killing babies" when they simply don't get pregnant, or take active steps to avoid getting pregnant.

Submitted by steph on March 16, 2009 - 7:38am.

I really feel for Bristol, even though I do not like her mom's politics. It takes an extroidnary amount of courage to be a single mother, even with all of the best support from your family, which I will give her parents some credit for. Bristol has become the unofficial and undesiring poster girl for abstinence only education's failures. Yet she is someone who should be seen by other young girls so that they understand the full consequences of not using birth control when they choose to have sex, but have fantasies that if they get pregnant, they will have someone to love them, or that then he will marry me. Babies are needy. Relationships that last the rest of your lives (marriage) is a needy institution. The reality is that you have to give, give, give, at a time when you should be focusing on yourself- your education, your social experiences,and business opportunities. Bristol can help squelch some of those fantasies. I wish Bristol all of the best. Yet those who advocate that she should have put the baby up for adoption instead of raising it herself, so that some infertile male/female couple could raise it, infuriates me. We women are NOT wombs for infertile couples desires for children! If a woman decides to go through the pregnancy just to give it away, that is HER choice, a valid one, but HER choice alone.

Submitted by JAN on March 14, 2009 - 6:40am.

I hold the somewhat unpopular belief that marriage and childrearing in a patriarchy is and always will be inherently unequal, no matter how enlightened or feminist the couple think they are. Marriage and the famblee are the vehicles through which the patriarchy propagates itself. Also, the planet does not need any more children. No, I don't care how much you want them. I was taught to value my identity and independence, and I couldn't see it being swallowed whole by mothering and wifing, or whatever its called in our lovely post-feminist society (snort). My apathy has grown so strong that a few people have stopped talking to me since I couldn't raise more than a weak smile when they tell me of their upcoming nuptials or their pregnancy, or because I clearly disliked being around children. I've ended relationships over it. I cannot think of anything more miserable than marriage and breeding. Bristol Palin cannot win, no matter what she does. She's already in the trap of a baby, the P just wants to garnish the shit cake with an unhappy marriage.

Submitted by Princess Rot on March 14, 2009 - 8:33am.

When 65% of all marriages end in divorce, why bother?

The odds are against you.

Submitted by Terry C on March 15, 2009 - 10:12am.

But more than half of all married people never get a divorce. The divorce rate is so high because of serial divorcers.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 16, 2009 - 10:18am.

Please, stop with such nonsense. You can value your identity and independence without trying to make those of us who like babies feel as though we're oppressing poor widdle you. You don't want to have a baby, fine. Let's hope your view remains in the minority because otherwise you won't have anyone to think up such pseudo-intellectual post-feminist snark after a few years.

Submitted by Tubapol on March 15, 2009 - 10:21am.

Let's review what the parent commented: "Let's hope your view remains in the minority because otherwise you won't have anyone to think up such pseudo-intellectual post-feminist snark after a few years."

That's exactly the self-righteous, patronizing attitude and scorn that drives people who choose not to have children into the defensive posture that the commenter is criticizing in the first place.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

You can't love children and hate people who don't want them. That just makes you a chauvinistic idiot and hypocrite. I pity the children you'd bring up into the world. Children need to learn and feel compassion for people with different preferences, and this commenter's children are starting out with a very real and nasty bias in the home. To what other legitimate personal differences and preferences are the children being desensitized?

So get over yourselves, parents and would-be parents. Let other people have their freedom to not have children. And let them have feelings about their decision not to have children without having to suffer your slings and arrows (spoken and unspoken). Let them be free from having to deal with your unwarranted feelings of superiority because you do want children. It does NOT make you superior in any way.

Racists are blind to the destructiveness of their evil. Is the commenter I'm replying to guilty of the same unconscious prejudice? I'd say in this case, yes!

Submitted by News Nag on March 15, 2009 - 11:12am.

You've wrongly made two assumptions about me - I'm not a parent, and I've got no problems with the original poster's lack of desire to procreate

I do have a problem with the nonsense that children are a way of maintaining patriarchal authority over women and society in general. As for marriage, yes, it can be construed as problematic but also construed to possess many liberating and affirming qualities - I'm willing to leave that topic open to debate. The fact of nature that only females have babies and men don't doesn't mean that some theoretical feminist construct of male dominance can be built around it. It's a (beautiful) quirk of nature and, might I add, vital to the continuation of our species. Such pseudo-intellectual pap as was peddled by the original post is far more destructive to society than my and my wife's desire to have children.

Again, I'll reiterate - someone doesn't want to have children, fine. Someone tells me they don't want to have children, fine. But someone tells me that children are a way to maintain a patriarchal world order - self-important faux-feminist half-brained pap.

Submitted by Tubapol on March 15, 2009 - 11:54am.

on one point having children is not a way to control a woman if she wants a child. In fact many men are scared off by the notion of even having kids or being fathers. I am a pro-choice women ,very independent never depended on any man, except my dad when I was a child. I wanted 13 kids! I loved taking care of and nurturing children, but my husband was abusive to me, and so I only had, had one child and that was it. I could not see having anymore in a relationship that would not work or last. He never paid any attention to her. It has hurt her for life I am sure. I would have loved to have had a decent loving husband who loved kids also. I think this notion works for both sides. But noone should condemn anyone because of their personal views.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 15, 2009 - 12:37pm.

Anon - sorry to hear about the damage done to you and your daughter by an abusive husband.

Your later decision to not have childen is also perfectly ok - it's not for me nor anyone else to judge such a step.

The condemnation in my posts is directed at the ridiculous 'intellectual' edifice built by the original post around marriage and families of a patriarchal, suppressive force.

Can children be used against women by unscrupulous males to 'keep them in their place'? Absolutely. Can a marriage by a male-dominated union? Of course. But the fact that these two phenomena exist is no reason to make blanket statements about the patriarchy being built on the foundation of 'breeding'. This term, used so contemptuously in the original post, is simply designed to be an affront to those of us who wish to be parents.

If someone doesn't want to have kids that's no big deal. It doesn't mean the rest of us who do are out to keep women under men's thumbs. That's just nonsense.

Submitted by Tubapol on March 15, 2009 - 12:50pm.

Tuba-hole, your privilege is showing. You may want to check that at the door next time ...

Submitted by Anonymous on March 16, 2009 - 2:50pm.

Har har, Tuba "hole", nice one.

As for my privilege... The 'pol' comes from the fact I live in Poland. As you may well be aware, it's a country awash in a rather conservative variety of Roman Catholicism.

Being an athiest of rather progressive leanings, I am quite often disgusted with the breathtaking backwardness and ignorance of many of the views expressed by a large portion of the country's population regarding feminism, women's rights, and the like.

That said, I have learned one very, very important lesson from Polish culture - family and child-rearing can be wonderful, life-affirming experiences. When people decide (or have to) to take responsibility for a young life, it often brings immesurable joy to the life of the parent(s). If someone doesn't feel this is the right path for them, fine by me - as I sad earlier, such a decision is A-OK! But don't tell me that my union is oppressive and backwards because my choices are different from yours.

The blather about marriage and gender roles represents ossified pseudo-academic 'thought' about marriage and partnership that just isn't relevant. Yes, there are segments of society which have a patriarchal conception of union, but for those with just a modicum of spine and sense it's not an issue to fashion a union based on other values than "poisonous gender roles, sexism, patriarchy and ownership". In spite of pressures from certain fragments of society the male in a traditional nuclear family does not have to be by design sui iuris - partnerships of all sorts are open to negotiation and discussion depending simply on the goodwill of the parties involved, and heterosexual marriage does not differ in any way in that regard. When my wife and I took our wedding vows, we committed to a mutually-supportive relationship in which we would do everything within our power to help the other realize his/herself to the fullest extent possible. The words we used to express that were the same for me and for her - a model of equality. Part of that includes our mutual desire to have children and raise them - which happens to be a biological imperative for large numbers of people. No ceremony of ownership there.

And the fact that I decided to enter into a traditional heterosexual marriage also does not preclude me from being a supporter and advocate of same-sex unions, same-sex adoption, single mothers and fathers, abortion rights, and the like. In spite of the unpopularity of such views in my country of residence I voice them any chance I get. So you might say I'm willing to abolish my 'privilege' for the sake of change, but the fact that this change hasn't happened yet cannot be equated with saying that my marriage is inherently oppressive and I am my wife's patriarchal lord and master just because you read something like that in a hackneyed pseudo-femenist screed.

As for the reactions of Princess Rot's friends, well, you can disagree with someone's choices and yet be enough of a friend to genuinely be happy for them and their happiness. Next time try to understand someone's choices and why they might be different from yours instead of just "disagreeing" with them - it't not your place to disagree with someone choosing to have babies, just as it's not my place to disagree with your decision not to have them.

Submitted by Tubapol on March 17, 2009 - 4:02am.

My lone opinion is not "destructive to society", what ridiculous hyperbole. If we were in danger of extinction, and all fertile persons felt like me, then yeah, you could probably call it a danger. However, it's not, and it's unlikely to happen.


Where did I say children are the problem? I said het marriage and childrearing in the nuclear family set up are the problem, not the children themselves, unless they go on to copy it, by which point they wouldn't be children anyway. You are reacting in that defensive way that my ex-friends did. Despite knowing my views, and having discussed them in depth, they still expected asspats. I only smiled, I was not impolite, I did not tell them to go and fuck themselves, nor did I call them names. They cut off contact with me for not patting them on the ass enough, I didn't stop speaking to them even though I privately disagreed with their choices. Such is life. I expected it, to some degree.


Also, where did I say all men are out to use marriage to oppress? I believe what I said was that in society where men by nature of their birth, hold more power than any woman that the issue of marriage and the burdens of childrearing will always fall most heavily onto the woman. Sure, people can make it work for them, but they are still upholding the status quo, and the status quo does not hold valid any other family than man+woman+child(ren), regardless of how independent or feminist the couple are.
It saddens me that so many will freely choose marriage, without examining WHY they want to keep something so steeped in poisonous gender roles, sexism, patriarchy, and ownership without rejecting it outright. What it boils down to is exchanging of property, whether or not this includes the female party along with the dowry, as it still does in so many places. Is it impossible to love someone for life without needing a ceremony of ownership (symbolic or literal) to cement it?


It is a social hierarchy that is to blame, not the individual. The only way for marriage to not be oppressive is for it to be open to all, not just heteros, and for the status quo, the patriarchy and the man/woman roles to disappear. Sadly, I have no solution to the problem other than radical social change. If there were no status quo, there would be no problem with LGBTQ adoption or marriages, there would not be such social pressure on women to reproduce, no stigma against abortion or birth control, no such bias against women and men who dislike children, and likewise there would not be pressure on those who have reproduced to be superheroes at it.Only recently has opinion given way slightly to allow a man and woman, living together unmarried to have children without shame. There still exists a stigma against single parents, though it is slowly lessening.


BTW, thank you, News Nag and Anon, your insights are far more well-written than mine. Huh, steph? I said my views were unpopular, as this thread proves they are. How is holding the unpopular opinion being holier-than-thou? It is true that people do get defensive when they are confronted with the fact that having children is not an unselfish decision, just as not having children isn't.

Submitted by Princess Rot on March 16, 2009 - 12:22pm.

The "parent" was not replying to the poster's choice not to have children, it was the poster's criticism of marriages as inherently unequal and the choice to have children as inherently wrong. One can choose to be childless (I did) without criticizing those who choose to have children. If you decide to make critical statements about others, expect others to make critical statements about you.

Comparing the parent to a racist is just demonizing without responding to the criticism.

Submitted by ekwhite on March 15, 2009 - 3:33pm.

I've had a kid, raised one, taught for over half my life: I'm done with them. I avoid places they're likely to be, and I leave when I'm wrong. Even one child dragged to a get together means that we're all going to coo over him instead of talking to each other.

You've been taking some flak, Princess. You're not alone.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 15, 2009 - 10:45am.

Obviously you have never met MY mother. The idea that she was second to my father is ludicrous. She was a strong, independent working woman who stood up for her rights. The idea that she was oppressed by my father is ridiculous. My father passed away recently, and the one thing I remember from the last time I saw him alive was how he held her hand for hours, and kept saying 'I love you' over and over to her.

I also remember how she stood up to my grandfather on my father's side, and threatened to kill him if he ever hit my grandmother again. Does that sound oppressed to you? BTW, my grandfather was a Southern prison guard, and he was afraid of my mother.

If you had said that many marriages are oppressive, or that many men treat their wives as chattel, I might have agreed. But you state that all marriages are inherently unequal and patriarchal. My mother didn't buy into that crap. She was a good mother and a strong woman at the same time. She had identity and independence in spades.

Submitted by ekwhite on March 15, 2009 - 3:24pm.

Princess is clearly insecure in her choices/opinions about not having children and not being married, possibly because our society has made her feel that she is "abnormal" or "defective" because she doesn't want to be married or have kids. Unfortunately, that insecurity has translated into adopting a holier-than-thou attitude about those choices as being above others who choose differently so that their criticism seemingly can't touch her. But putting down other people's choices is an immature and unintellectual way to be comfortable with and defend your own.

Submitted by steph on March 16, 2009 - 7:45am.

I think Princess Rot has expressed frustrations that a lot of people agree with, though not as politely as most would prefer.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think that a lot of childfree people are frustrated by people who do want kids. When you think about it, there is not a single reason to have a child that is not selfish. Many people I love and respect have become parents and I think they'll be great at it, but I'm still baffled as to why they did it. I don't see a single reason that is rational and, again, not based on selfishness. If their motive was just because they wanted to care for a child, why not adopt and care for one that's already here? We don't need more people and I think it would be better if we started having less children. Of course it's a human rights violation to take away people's rights to chose to have children or not and I would never advocate any sort of quota or limit people's right to have children, but I'm still frustrated and confused by how many people want to bring more children into the world.

And now for some nitpicking on the quotes:

If a mother chooses to carry a baby to term, under what circumstances should she consider putting [i]him[/i] up for adoption?

See the word I bolded? Yeah, maybe just a slip of the tongue but... why not use a gender neutral term?
And why the heck did he specifically point out African-American unwed mothers?! The "I'm not a racist, I swear!" card?

Submitted by Sayna on March 19, 2009 - 12:44pm.

Your mother sounds like someone I would have wanted to meet. We need more women like that.

Submitted by Dr. Dredd on March 16, 2009 - 9:52pm.

...is that this is the second piece of good sense I've heard out of Bristol Palin in the past 30 days. They should have put her on the ballot* instead of her mother.





*I know, I know, age requirements.

Submitted by DaveL on March 14, 2009 - 8:40am.

I'm sure there are lots of people who really do want to "reduce the number of abortions," but in our work on crisis pregnancy centers (funded by those at BeliefNet and LifeSite and all that jazz), we've found that to be false. If a woman enters a CPC and says she's carrying to term, they're happy. But once she mentions she's not married and wants to parent, they call her "selfish".
It's not enough that Bristol chose to carry to term, oh no. And when she was "planning on marrying" that racist scumbag it was okay. But oh my god she broke of the engagement and wants to be a single mother! (Hey, I don't blame her... single motherhood will be A LOT easier for the daughter of the gov!) No marriage? No adoption? UNACCEPTABLE, they cry! Proves "abortion reduction" is a BS front for "live your life the way we want."

Submitted by CPC Watcher on March 14, 2009 - 11:15am.

Funny how these people are all concerned for the fetuses and want women to bring pregnancies to terms, but where are they after those kids are born?

Oops - I forgot. The POST-born are on their own.

Submitted by Terry C on March 15, 2009 - 10:15am.

This is a good article except that I don't think Steve Waldman is really "a man in Bristol's life". I think he's just a commentator. My parents had a nasty divorce when I was seven. This baby is better off never having to deal with that. Not getting married doesn't necessarily mean that the child will never have visitation with his Dad but even if he doesn't it sounds like he has a good Mom who is being a responsible parent and at least two grandparents who want to help them both. I think this is one thing we can all agree on. This child will be just fine and I resent the push for adoption when its clear the child has a Mom and grandparents who are willing to provide for him and give him a good home. He may have lost his Dad, (which is sad) but seperating him from his Mom as well would be about the worst thing anyone could do at this point. My comments are usually not popular on rhrealitycheck ,but my hat's off to you because you have never prevented me from posting.

Submitted by cmarie on March 14, 2009 - 8:25pm.

Thanks for your post, and of course we never would discourage you from posting. While we may disagree on some or many things, and agree on many others, the purpose of the site is discussion.

 

I believe all people should have access to the education, information, services and methods they need to engage in healthy sexual lives, which means choosing pregnancy and childbirth, avoiding infection, choosing to be pregnant when they so desire, and avoiding pregnancy when they so desire.

 

I believe also that if a woman becomes pregnant, she has a right to choose to carry her pregnancy to term and keep her child, carry her pregnancy to term and give the child to another family for adoption, or terminate the pregnancy if that is her choice.

 

You and I agree here that Bristol has made a choice--to keep her baby, and we both agree that she is as likely as anyone to be a suitable parent. While in the abstract I think no one wishes this kind of situation on an 18-year-old, in reality it is what it is and it is her choice. Again, I think we are in agreement here and I appreciate your relating your own experience as I had a similar experience as a child with a different outcome but likely as troublesome effects on the kids in our family in the long run.

 

As I understand it, we disagree on the right to choose an abortion. That being the case, I think nonetheless we likely agree on the general point I was making. It seems that no matter what choices women are making, someone, and most often a male commentator from the right but sometimes also from the left, comes into the discussion to comment on the situation with a more than patronizing tone and a way of second-guessing women based on the barest of facts.  I found that to be the case with Waldman and his questions about what the Palin family considered, whether Bristol should have instead given her son up for adoption, and whether she and Levi should have been required to go to counseling, etc. I find this kind of thing very intrusive.

 

So while you are right that Waldman is obviously not "in" Bristol's life in the literal sense, for me that was part of the main point....why all of the particulars of his life was his business in any case. Thanks for writing. In case you think otherwise, I appreciate your posts, read them carefully, and don't think disagreements should keep us from discussions.

 

Thanks much, Jodi

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on March 14, 2009 - 8:47pm.

Thank you Jodi. Real quick, I would just like to add that when my parents divorced my Mom got custody and my Dad got visitation. But, my Dad never missed a visit or a phone call or was even late for either. And even though I probably didn't appreciate that at the time, I do now. So, I would encourage any parent who doesn't win primary custody not to become discouraged. Kids appreciate that you value your visitation time with them.

Submitted by cmarie on March 16, 2009 - 6:40pm.

aarggghh I meant to say "he was never late, never missed a call" (and I remember and appreciate that now) thanks

Submitted by cmarie on March 16, 2009 - 6:44pm.
i am not judging Levi and have no reason to believe that he won't have rights to see his child; he does have legal standing after all, unless there is something that compels a judge to restrict that. but this is all speculation, and i don't want to engage in that here. the bottom line is I totally agree with you on that. best, jodi
Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on March 16, 2009 - 6:47pm.

the part of "I'm dying to know: did Sarah Palin require that they get marriage counseling before breaking up?" that bothered you was marriage counseling? Huh? The word require was a lot more disturbing. The incredible paternalism of thinking that Bristol's parents should have required her to do anything as a prerequisite to breaking up is appalling. The apparent belief that they could impose any such requirement is so incredible that I can't find the words to express how disturbing it is.

Oh, and Waldman doesn't even seem to consider the possibility that pre-marital counseling could have been what convinced them not to get married. Wouldn't surprise me a bit....

Submitted by j.e.b. on March 15, 2009 - 9:13am.
Good points. I meant to focus as well on "require," in the sense he suggested they should be required to do marriage counseling, but you are correct....it did not come out clearly and you are correct, that he suggests they require her to do anything is indeed paternalistic. Finally, you are also correct that it could have been premarital counseling that led to convincing them not to get married. thanks for the input. jj
Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Editor, RH Reality Check on March 15, 2009 - 3:45pm.

I agree with CMarie's point about keeping the baby (though I don't know about her thoughts on abortion.) A new baby is part of a family. Mothers shouldn't feel pressured to give up their children because of finances or the need to keep a job. I'm no Sarah Palin fan, but from what I've seen I expect that she and her husband will be there for their daughter and grandchild. As a parent I cannot imagine giving away one of my kids. I'm a man btw. The young man in the picture needs to "nut up" as Tina Fey would say. It's man time and he should love his new child and take responsibility for his new family. Have you noticed how the man/boy in these situations tend to be so easily let off the hook? That's bullshit.

Submitted by 2040Worldview on March 15, 2009 - 9:21am.

Shorter Steve Waldman:

I believe marriage is meant to be a sacred contract between two unwilling teenagers.

Submitted by forked tongue on March 15, 2009 - 9:28am.

Required = forced.

Illegal in the US of A and, besides, Bristol and Levi were over 18.

And what are the chances that a guy like Levi, forced into marriage, wouldn't become a wife beater and/or child abuser?

Submitted by Terry C on March 15, 2009 - 9:43am.

What Princess Rot sed...

Submitted by Aeon on March 15, 2009 - 9:54am.

Why is it Waldman's business? (Or yours, for that matter?)
Because Bristol (following her mommy's advice and needs) MADE this circus our business. We'll never know, of course, (thank God) but Bristol was never going to marry him unless mommy won the election. Most normal couples who professed love for each other and the intent to marry would have done so BEFORE the birth. or at least immediately after the election. When they didn't, there was no way.

"Marital counseling" could be a shorthand way of nothing "there is a child, and mommy and daddy have to sit down with some sort of neutral to discuss how to raise him." This is NOT Bristol's unilateral choice. Levi has just as much right in this. And although not married under current law, in a very real way the existence of the child builds relationships between Bristol and Levi which are their, whether Levi, Bristol or you wish to acknowledge them. Criticize Waldman (who does have a lot of legitimate criticism due for a lot of reasons) for suggesting counseling to recognize that fact, is sheer idiocy.

Do I (or you or Waldman) have any reason to be interesed in this circus? ONly because mommy and daddy invited us in...and perhaps should have the child taken away from both of them for that.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 15, 2009 - 9:55am.

"Criticize Waldman (who does have a lot of legitimate criticism due for a lot of reasons) for suggesting counseling to recognize that fact, is sheer idiocy."

Waldman is a paternalistic moron. To agree with anything he has to say on the subject is sheer idiocy.

Submitted by Terry C on March 15, 2009 - 10:18am.

You get to decide what a NORMAL couple would do?! Geez, you can't even make your condescension and holier-than-thou attitude in the least opaque.

And you say the Palins MADE their business our business? Sorry to have to say, but it's still not your or my business.

Your attitude is such typical buttinski moralizing about a situation you know absolutely nothing about. You assume facts not in evidence, such as whether Levi had any say in this.

Your opinions are so tainted and dripping with over and ugly patronizing patriarchy that they are self-parodying.

Try having some REAL respect for people, their decisions, and their privacy, and resist the urge to project your narrow-minded assumptions onto others.

Submitted by News Nag (a male) on March 15, 2009 - 11:28am.

a man who is angry because he may not have any parental rights here? I must say as a woman I agree many men are discriminated by the courts over parental rights. I am not sure why but I think it is unfair, especially if the man is truly a good parent and not a wife beater or threatening to the mother in any way. It should be fair. You know why I can say this? Because I kow how bad it feels to be discriminated against by men. Maybe you can start to understand what fairness and unfairness feels like. Or is that asking to much?

Submitted by Anonymous on March 15, 2009 - 12:52pm.

Biology isn't fair. The law tries to take that into account. Got a problem with that? Address nature.

When men start getting pregnant, carrying the fetus for nine months, and giving birth, then they can have as many "parental rights" as women do.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 16, 2009 - 1:27pm.

Bristol Palin's choice to keep her baby and not marry the father is HER choice and hers alone.

No one is suggesting that Levi Johnston doesn't have rights and responsibilities when it comes to the child he fathered. Those rights don't extend to the right to force her to marr. Of course, this is none of our business, or any of Waldman's either, but we, at least, are not suggesting she be forced to marry. So you are suggesting the child be taken away because Bristol's MOTHER, not Bristol, chose to run for national office? You, sir, are a boor.

Submitted by ekwhite on March 15, 2009 - 3:45pm.

Another matter to take note of is how Steve and his fellow mouth-breathers are focusing solely on Bristol. There is not one word from these asses about Levi. It's the same old story; men are allowed to make babies all they want, while women are the ones who are forced to take responsibility for it.

And what would have happened to the two of them if McCain had won the election? Would they have been somehow forced into the marriage anyway? It was obvious from the start that the two of them were nothing but campaign props, used to show Palin's conservative street cred to the GOP base. I've felt sorry for them from the moment they were dragged into the spotlight.

Submitted by Oh really? on March 15, 2009 - 10:10am.

"It's the same old story; men are allowed to make babies all they want, while women are the ones who are forced to take responsibility for it."

That's why the Vatican and the fundies condemn birth control and say nothing about Viagra.

Patriarchy.....you're soaking in it.

Submitted by Terry C on March 15, 2009 - 10:21am.

Excellent post, every single word. Brav!

Submitted by Sharkbabe on March 15, 2009 - 10:10am.

Talk about judgmental. Can't stand to be around children? Clearly she has never met my 9-year-old daughter. Anyone who could not stand to be around my daughter is missing some essential element of humanity.

You say, Princess, that you were "taught to value my identity and independence." Did it ever occur to you that some of us are teaching our princesses the same thing?

Submitted by John R on March 15, 2009 - 10:19am.

Why is that considered so horrible?

I have two of my own, but I give props to anyone who recognizes that they are not parent material and refuse to allow society, their parents, etc. to force them into having children.

Submitted by Terry C on March 15, 2009 - 10:23am.