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This is What Religious Objection to Abortion Looks Like?

Frances Kissling's picture

Abortion is illegal in Brazil except when a woman’s life is in danger or if the woman has been raped. Public hospitals in Brazil, largely as a result of the work of the strong feminist movement in that country, have been steadily improving abortion services for women who have been raped.

A case in point is the abortion performed Wednesday on a nine-year-old girl who was carrying twins. The girl had been raped by her stepfather, who is now in jail awaiting trial. Doctors at the public hospital where the abortion was performed noted that the girl who weighs very little and simply could not sustain the pregnancy which posed a serious risk to her life.

Stories like this are not uncommon in Latin America. Family planning counselors from Nicaragua to Argentina report seeing pregnant women from nine- to thirteen-years-old regularly. In 2003, international attention was focused on “Rosa,” another nine-year-old in Nicaragua who was also raped and was lucky enough to get a legal abortion. Abortion is now totally illegal in Nicaragua - even for nine-year-old rape victims.

Paulina, a 13-year-old Mexican girl who had been raped in late 1999, was not so lucky. She sought an abortion and was denied. Paulina was subject to several violations of her human rights while pregnant, including the leaking of her condition to anti-abortion forces in the state who then invaded her hospital room with anti-choice propaganda. The local district attorney drove her to the office of a local priest who then also tried to convince her not to have an abortion. In the end, Paulina had a baby. In small part, Paulina’s story resulted in the legalization of abortion in Mexico City. We can now hope that other children who become pregnant will not suffer her fate.

These cases tear at most people’s heart. These are unambiguous reasons for legal abortion for almost everyone - except the Roman Catholic church. For in each of these cases, local bishops have intervened to try and prevent the abortion, to seek criminal charges against health care workers and, when all else fails, to threaten to excommunicate those involved.

In the Brazilian case, Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho noted in an interview with the Brazilian press that the actions of the girl’s mother and her doctors meant excommunication. The church thought that the girl should continue the pregnancy and deliver the child by Cesarean section. No mention was made of excommunicating the stepfather who had raped the nine-year-old child.

The bishop was aware enough of the canons concerning excommunication not to claim that the girl was excommunicated. Canon law prohibits the excommunication of anyone under the age of majority. But, was the bishop correct in his opinion that the “adults” who were involved had “incurred excommunication?” Maybe not.

The assertion reminded me of an attempt by Mexican bishops to excommunicate the legislators in Mexico City who voted to legalize abortion. During an impromptu press conference on Shepherd One, the papal plane, which at the time was on its way to Brazil, Pope Benedict was asked if this was appropriate. “Yes,” he said “the excommunication was not arbitrary, it is part of canon law."

Huh?

Within minues, the papal spokesperson walked back to the press and tempered the remarks. The next day, the transcript of the event excluded the Pope’s "yes."

While the lack of compassion Archbishop Sobrinho exhibited is without question, his canonical wisdom is in question. Excommunication of the sort he discussed is not imposed. Rather, it is considered self-admininistered by the person who has committed the act. And if the person believes the action they took was not sinful, but was the most moral alternative in a difficult situation, then no excommunication has occurred. For this mother and the girl’s doctors no decision could have been more moral.


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119 comments
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Excommunicating EVERYONE who is not totally opposed to abortion Or birth control is the best thing that could happen. This would highlight the misogynistic basis for this isolated & privileged group of males in the RCC hierarchy. Then maybe Catholics would stop pretending these males have any credibility and stop giving them money to promote their anti-woman agendas.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 6, 2009 - 1:24pm.

Sadly, the Catholics that give them money - the serious cash anyway (like the ones linked to Opus Dei and Legion of Christ)- already share their agendas.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 7, 2009 - 9:01pm.

The archbishop refers to God's Law. However, abortion is nowhere forbidden in the Bible; indeed, it isn't even mentioned. So the Church applies the fifth commandment: Thou shalt not kill. Look who's talking--the Catholic Church ranks right behind folks like Nero, Caligula, Hitler, and Stalin when it comes to killing those who have disagreed with it over the centuries. If the Church had had its way, the girl would have died a slow and painful death, with her twins, when they would have grown too big for her little body. Killed by the Church, all three of them. Thou shalt not kill, indeed.

The mother and the doctors have been excommunicated. But not the stepfather, he who broke an actual command in God's Law: Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. (Lev. 18:17) The punishment to be administered is spelled out in clear: Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. (Lev. 18:29) Excommunication, that is. Commanded in God's Law, but not carried out by the Church, because the poor sinner is a man. In the eyes of the Church, he's still a Catholic in good standing.

The misogynism of conservative so-called Christians comes from the same Middle Eastern tradition as that of conservative Muslims like the Taleban: Woman, even at nine years old, is but a vessel meant to bear sons for a man. She has no rights, particularly not over her own body. If there are complications with a pregnancy and a choice has to be made, always let the woman die: she has no value.

For more on failed religious institutions, read my free book.

Submitted by Gregory Greene on March 6, 2009 - 3:11pm.

If you base your nonsense argument on propaganda and lies spread by protestants then it's still rubbish. The protestants in one particular witch burning frenzy managed to kill over 25000 people. Look up the Spanish inquisition and see how misguidedly stupid your remarks are.

Your wilfully ignorant sexist interpretation would be funny but it's too stupidly boring. The child has priority over the mother on a first in last out basis.

It's sad how sexism for wimmin or feminism as you call it is defined mainly by murdering unborn babies.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 9, 2009 - 4:36pm.

You forget you came from a woman and you started the first six weeks of life as a woman. You are putting yourself down. You are no better than she. GET IT! BIGOT!!

Submitted by Anonymous on March 9, 2009 - 9:13pm.

Frances, thank you for bringing these incidents up. The story of Rosa was what led to me finally leaving the Roman Catholic Church.

More than that, it opened me up to the possibility of the RCC being a fundamentally evil institution---that nonetheless has a lot of good people in it---by so utterly, indefensibly, unforgivably failing half the human race. It would be one thing if the Church had silently averted their eyes in these cases, preferring hypocrisy to the clear evil of forcing these young girls to carry their pregnancies to term; but no---they did everything they could to coerce them into doing so, rhetorically, spiritually and legally, and no one in the hierarchy has disavowed this.

I feel this is even more damning than the sexual-abuse scandal, because there, the Church at least paid lip service to the fact that it was a bad thing (even if the Vatican, to this day, continues to shelter Bernard Law from the U.S. legal system). Here, it is avowed Church canon, all the way to the very top.

The ultimate indictment of the Church is that, between sticking to doctrine and doing the right thing, they choose the former every time. Even at the cost of human lives. We saw it with AIDS and condoms in Africa, with contraception in many socially conservative countries, and ultimately here, where 9-year old girls giving birth from rape is part of the Kingdom of God.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 6, 2009 - 3:27pm.

...I'm grateful that we are a secular nation. Everything about this tragedy for these young girls is beyond comprehension.
...I thought the Roman Catholic faith was about Jesus dying for the faithful's sins, not that the little girls or their caregivers did anything wrong. But in the church's eyes, their own god's sacrifice and forgiveness wasn't enough I guess. The church has to have a male-only clergy club threaten excommunication--but not of the father-figure rapist? I's all greek to me.
...Although I don't understand the layers of injustices perpetrated on these girls and their caregivers, my heart goes out to them all. Again, I'm so grateful we live in a country where this powerful male-only clergy club has no influence on my life or that of my family. And I thought that channel surfing and seeing the likes of Pat Robertson on my screen was bad enough. This story gives me some perspective. My heart goes out to all the people in these countries who are going up against such unjust power in order to be free from them.

Submitted by universenme on March 6, 2009 - 3:32pm.

But we do not live in a secular nation where the worst that can happen is that you see Pat Robertson on TV while channel surfing.

You will find, if you research at all, or follow the issues presented on this site or numerous others- that the religious fundamentalists have very much influenced public policy, they have in the past and they are continuing to do so as we go forward. And we MUST continue to fight this.(see Americans United for separation of church and state,theocracy watch etc. for additional information).
Now, about the Catholic Church- how many US politicians has the church, the Pope and or the bishops threatened to excommunicate- just in the last couple of months- if they didn't adhere to the Church's position on abortion, birth control etc.??? Too numerous to mention.It is outrageous. We elect officials to represent us- the citizens of this country- not the Church or the Pope.

Sorry, I didn't mean to jump on you- certainly things are not as bad in this country as they are in others, but constant vigilance is required to prevent the sad state of affairs that exist in some other countries with regard to women.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 6, 2009 - 4:48pm.

...After reading Ms. Kissling's blog, I was thinking what it would be like to live in a country where Roman Catholicism has a much more powerful grip on average people since so many of Brazil's citizens identify as Roman Catholic.
...Even though there are many RCs in my neighborhood, for instance, the threat of ex-communication doesn't mean anything to me because I don't identify as RC, and there's no shame that I'm not even a Christian (I'm UU) even though I live in a small, struggling town in a county that has more registered Dems than Repubs but where McCain received more votes than Obama by 5 points--not liberal by a long shot. Without the power of shame and a homogeneous belief system, there can be no ex-communication, be it Catholic or from any other social institution.
...There is a healthy assumption of equality and privacy that I attribute to our secular culture that I enjoy whether the religious people in my community acknowledge it or not--they probably attribute relative peace and harmony among our neighbors to their god. Whether or not these religious people discuss my spiritual/moral "decay" or "demise" while not in my presence doesn't negate my equal standing in the community, and neither my family or I have any special sway here. That's what I'm grateful for.
...Is it perfect? Nope. Do I need to be vigilent against those who want to thwart the secular underpinnings of our Constitutuion and culture? Yep. Am I blind to their influence on politicians? Nope. Have I let it be known that I disagree with my neighbors on issues like women's equality, abortion, etc.? Yep. Can I be grateful for seemingly a little progress? Yep. If I didn't, I'd be pretty hopeless and just give up. And thank you for acknowledging that things are a little bit better in this country than in others.
...By the way, I'm a member of AU. And I wish Joan Bokaer of Theocracy Watch had more exposure in mainstream media--but I wish that about most of our thoughtful mentors.
...Peace to you.

Submitted by universenme on March 7, 2009 - 8:13am.

agree
It's interesting, because for the first time in my life I seem to be encountering a striking number of Christians- most of whom are very conservative about these matters (read "anti")and are active in trying to impose those beliefs on others. It is an anathema to me.
And thank you for you very interesting response- I really was just venting.

Submitted by Anon on March 7, 2009 - 10:20am.

Hey, if we can’t vent, we ain’t free. And you’re very correct about the cons and religious right folks’ imposing their beliefs on others. I’ve discussed the following before on this website, but indulge me with my rant about the imposers:
…Their cosmology demands imposition. Their story is about an outside force, namely an all-knowing and all-loving but very judgmental male anthropomorphic deity who assembled the planet and placed everything on it short order, specifically six days. Not long after their creation story begins, humans are deemed “sinful,” the inherent inferiority of women is assumed, and humans already understand agriculture; ergo, no evolution from hunter-gather to farmer let alone all the elements of life being created when stars were formed. Hence the evolution of women’s story of always needing to control the number of children they had since they experienced a steady food supply and the story of all of life is quashed. The rest of their narrative is told from male-god-over-man-over-woman- over-children-over-everything-else-on-the-planet hierarchy and how everybody must accept their “salvation message” by conforming to their paradigm.
...Then there’s their obsession with “women’s sins” that really drives them. When you think about it, even homosexuality bothers them because they don’t like men “acting like” women, and they don’t like women depending on each other instead of men.
…Since neither you nor I nor the vast majority of people on this website accept their cosmology, the imposers feel obligated to evangelize us, particularly since many of us are pretty emphatic about our own stories and our free will, which they interpret as “selfishness” and "disobedience."
…Their world has been turned upside down particularly since the last election, and their political party is a bit disorganized right now but that won’t last long because their nature is to conform and be organized.
…But we must continue to engage, particularly with those with open minds. Above all, we must use our voices to tell our own stories even when our voices shake.

Submitted by univeresenme on March 7, 2009 - 5:35pm.

It is such painfull and emotionally charged issue no matter what side one is. I am trying however to look at this as calm and collected without any biasses. After all I am a man and do not pretend to know half the issues a woman goes through when coming to such decision. It's so much easier to just carry to term. And while this carries a consecuence the other choice is just as difficult if not worse.
The only way to look at this is from the perspective of the mother and her condition, circumstances, moral and physical strength. This should be the start of the discussion and not morality or religion. Because if everything was discussed that way, we could end up persecuting everyone. For everything and anything. This is the aspect of religion that religious people don't get. Notwithstanding the personal aspect of the mother's health, social and economic conditions as well as her view on the moral aspect of it.

Submitted by Nik2u on March 7, 2009 - 4:29pm.

So how is it "so much easier to just carry to term"? And what "other choice is just as difficult if not worse"?
And how did you come to these assessments after you correctly explained that "as a man ... (you) do not pretend to know half the issues a woman goes through when coming to such decision." I'm just asking in a calm and collected way without any biasses--really.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 7, 2009 - 5:47pm.

"It's so much easier to just carry to term."

What are you talking about?

Did you miss the part where the discussion was about raped and pregnant children? In this latest case from Brazil the doctors said that this little 9 year old girl's (she weighed in at no more than 80 lbs) life was in danger.

 

Submitted by colleen on March 7, 2009 - 7:00pm.

Abortion is something like 20 times safer than childbirth. Pregnancy is an immense drain on the body. Labor is extremely hard. The only way you could consider it "easy" is if you simply consider the woman a flowerpot for a man's seed, rather than grasp the reality that the woman's body *builds* the baby.

Also, no, abortion is not always a "painfull and emotionally charged issue." Many of us have had, or would have, abortions and have no qualms about it. The idea that abortion is always this traumatic experience is right-wing propaganda.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 9, 2009 - 8:57pm.

Lets look at the logic of this. The outcome of sex is having a baby (reproduction). You know that having a baby is a potentially dangerous activity. You don't like the idea of having to go through this dangerous activity. I know a way to get out of it! Don't have sex until you are prepared to accept the consequences! How many women actually are in danger of dieing if the carry a baby to term? Not very many. How many babies die every day from abortion? I've lost track, was it 3000? You have the right to choose to have sex, to use contraception and be careful. Accidents happen. Accept some responsibility women.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 10, 2009 - 2:24am.

Accidents happen  Accept some responsibility women

It is every bit as responsible to terminate ones pregnancy as it would be to gestate ones pregnancy... how you (or I) feel about either choice does not alter the responsibility of that choice.

Submitted by Mellankelly1 on March 10, 2009 - 7:11am.

Logically, you need to take your "responsibility" message to the guys. Tell them to wear a rubber every single time they have sex. Tell them to know exactly how to put it on and to remove it. Tell them that there is absolutely no room for error. Are there records on the number of men who have to be prodded or forced to take responsiblity for children they made? There are definitely more than 3000 a day. Do you even have the cajones to have this discussion with guys? And if you could have a discussion, can it be discussed without ego-boosting bull like, "Well we have to protect the weaker sex, and they need us to take leadership on this issue"? How about, "Hey guys, man up. Take responsiblity for your sperm. No excuses for broken rubbers. Or don't have sex." If you don't piss them off or have your manhood challeneged, mazal tov, baby. Do you realize how many unplanned pregnancies could be avoided if guys manned up? Get busy, dude. You got some preachin' to do ... somewhere else.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 11, 2009 - 6:50am.

It's so much easier to just carry to term.

Spoken as someone who has zero understanding of reproductive physiology. Spontaneous and elective abortion carry infinitely far less risk of morbidity and mortality than do carrying to term and then undergoing labor.

And this is why only the pregnant woman (and not the church nor the government nor random strangers) has final say over her own pregnancy. Because her life and medical decisions are nobodye's business but her own. What decision she makes (keep, adopt, or terminate) is hers and hers alone, as she is the one who is subject to all the risks and the majority of the heartaches of each of those alternatives.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on April 3, 2009 - 1:54pm.

Leave or boycott the catholic church! It seems to be the only way to make a statement that says I HAVE HAD IT WITH MALE BIGOTS!
So many good women work as volunteers in the Catholic church. What an impact it would make to just walk out.
I left at age 18 and said I would not go back until women were treated as equals..... I am still waiting......

Submitted by Anonymous on March 6, 2009 - 4:11pm.

I was born into the RCC but never attended, as at a very early age, realized how sexist it was and is. Thankfully, my family has supported my decision and also left as a result of my enlightening them. Not everyone who is born into it can be brainwashed by it, but it is very important that the RCC loses people, money, and power, as a result of the extreme Partiarcy, and lack of capacity for reason. I find many similar stories of women and girls leaving the church for these very reasons, and I have to add that I am happy to have enlightened and influenced them to get away from this anti woman institution.

Submitted by JAN on March 7, 2009 - 9:19am.

A nine year old girl,got pregnat by her step-dad,but only the mother and the doctors were excomuataed ? W.T.F???
Preist's of the said church molest kid's every day.
Why aren't they excommutated ?
If you go to a church service, then that must mean, that you support them in doing just that.Molesting chrildren.

Submitted by Torbis5661 on March 7, 2009 - 1:46pm.

"No mention was made of excommunicating the stepfather who had raped the nine-year-old child."\

Of course not. To the best of my knowledge no man has ever been excommunicated from the RCC for raping a chilld or a woman. That's not nearly as bad as, say, voting for a pro-choice Democrat or taking birth control pills or trying to save your raped 9 year old daughter's life.

Its amusing how silent the right wing Catholics who post here are about this story,  It's as if they don't see  Francis Kissling's  excellect post at all. And, to answer the question in of her title , yes, this is what religious objection to abortion looks like. At bottom this is what all Patriarchial religions look like.

Submitted by colleen on March 7, 2009 - 5:47pm.

To argue abstract religious theories (no proof or facts needed) than face this rather dramatic story.The fundamentalists on this site- will never deal with these realities.
Thank you Ms. Kissling, your post was a sharp reminder that we are NOT dealing in abstract theory- but that there are very real victims out there.

Submitted by Anon on March 7, 2009 - 7:47pm.

I'm not a silent RCC member. I just feel like Jesus being led to his torture. He did'nt say much either. Your hate has blinded you.

Abortion is taking a human life. It is against God's law to take a human life, except in very rare dire situations. You know this. This is a difficult case, but I ask you a question; which is worse- death or rape? One is worse than the other; both are horrible, but which is worse?

Submitted by folk singing democrat on March 11, 2009 - 11:42pm.

A bit messianic don't you think? Comparing yourself to Jesus.
Well good luck with that.

Submitted by Anon on March 12, 2009 - 1:28am.

Not at all. Jesus said "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me". So if he identifies with me, I can identify with him. That's what friends do.
And thank you for the good luck.

Submitted by Y.I.C. on March 12, 2009 - 11:32am.

OK, OK. Looking over my original email, it does seem a bit strident, even if true. It's pretty easy to have the emotions fired up on these topics. I happen to love the RCC, even though it is in continual need of improvement. It's always been that way, but it keeps improving. But if you look around this web site, you certainly come away feeling barraged by anti-Catholic slander. No question about it, there are few fair assessments of religion here. Since that is the case, does anyone know where I can find info on women's rights, sexuality education, contraception, access to abortion, STI/HIV/AIDS, maternal health, etc. that is not RCC-phobic?

Submitted by Y.I.C. on March 12, 2009 - 11:46am.

Unfortunately- it is the RCC fanatics which bring their religion into this and onto this site- trying to force it down the throat of everyone else.
Everyone here generally feels that you may believe what you want- just don't force it on us, don't try to make laws enforcing your beliefs, don't threaten our democratic/republican processes with threats from god or Rome etc. etc.
Believe what you want, but don't force it on us. That seems fair. This is not a religious site, it is for a discussion of women's reproductive health issues.
Here is a site that I found very interesting and fair with a good discussion of the various issues and how various groups view those issues.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abortion.htm

Submitted by Anon on March 12, 2009 - 12:06pm.

On the contrary, this site is about women's issues, and family issues and reproductive issues. All these topics involve values, rights, responsibilities-- anything related to the humanities and social circles!! Religion is a part of all this, because it is the foundation of most people's belief systems. I'm not ramming anything down anyones' throat. I'm holding up a strongly felt set of views which is the purpose of these sites-- the exchange of ideas and viewpoints. This site is democratic, it does not discriminate based on gender, race , sexual orientation, or religious viewpoint. You can take my views, or leave them. But if you discriminate against me, because of the color of my skin, or because I might be a woman, then you are no better than the people you dispise. This is America, and all are welcome to participate in the process, the voting booth, lobbying, letter writing, blogging. This site is not just for men. Or African Americans and Jewish people. It's so we can say what we think about issues that not remain isolated, closed up, and narrow. Stand up for rights!
Everyones' voice needs to be heard, not snuffed, eh?

Submitted by RCCer on March 12, 2009 - 12:33pm.

YIP was complaining about people on this site discussing and critisizing the RCC. (Actually he called it bashing I believe- but that's just his perspective).
You have just confirmed what I said- the RCCers are the ones that keep bringing the RCC and their religion to this site and try to shove it down everyone's throat.
You are certainly welcome to the discussion, but then don't complain about the responses critisizing the RCC -like YIP did.
Can't have it both ways.

Submitted by Anon on March 12, 2009 - 12:54pm.

Actually, I've never been to this site before yesterday. I didnt know others noticed the same thing I did. Sure, using words like BIGOT(all upper case), EVIL, etc. classify as "bashing", especially since the RCC isnt trying to be these things. It could be a communication problem, or it could be bashing. I noticed it.
Now of course I can complain about the responses if I disagree, or see error, which I do. Of course I can. And I can say what I wish, this is a public forum.
Again, the views of the RCC, and my views can be aired here on the subjects of women's rights, reproductive issues, religious views regarding abortion (it's the subject of one of the main articles) without having it called "shoving it down our throats". Please. Enough with the "bashing". But I have to stop now, I've spent too much time tapping these silly plastic square things. It's nice outside, and life is short, relatively. We should go get a coffee and listen to the birds.

Submitted by YIP on March 12, 2009 - 1:20pm.

Call it what you like-posters on this site will continue to critisize the views of the Church and object to the attempt to impose their religious views on the rest of us.

Freedom of speech applies to all of us-so you come on here and talk about religion all you want- but if you do so, then you better grow up and deal with the critism.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 12, 2009 - 1:39pm.

I'm not even going to sugarcoat this for your obviously fragile ego: To believe that an insensate cluster of barely differentiated person is more important than a living, breathing, thinking woman is completely asinine.

In short, you are a moron for believing something so ignorant.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on April 3, 2009 - 1:57pm.

Please boycott the Catholic Church because you clearly have no understanding of the Catholic Church's teachings. The Catholic Church is not going to change to suit modern agendas of a contraceptive society - Humanae Vitae clearly explained the reason(s) why - read and embrace the Truth and remain or become a True Roman Catholic or don't. We don't need you to volunteer or give money - just leave - there are plenty of other church's that subscribe to your ways. The path is narrow...

Submitted by Truth on March 8, 2009 - 1:09am.

To Truth: I was a Catholic and am appalled that you support a church that has this kind of values! Vatican can get away with anything they want but not the parishoners? Maybe there are good priests and parishoners but that does not excuse what the Vatican has done or not done like what happened to all those Alter boys who were sexually abused.

You don't have to worry about me coming back I won"t!!!

Submitted by Anonymous on March 8, 2009 - 8:46am.

"you clearly have no understanding of the Catholic Church's teachings."

Explain it to us then.  Why is it 'moral' to kill a raped 9 year old girl by demanding she try to carry twins to term?
Her stepfather raped her since she was 6 and raped her disabled 14 year old sister too. Why is that less offensive than what her mother did...which was authorize an abortion to save her child's life?

 

Submitted by colleen on March 8, 2009 - 11:50am.

WHY the Cat-lick church felt it necessary to put pederasts waaaay up in Alaska where they raped and molested Native Alaskans for decades rather than excommunicate them.
Do those kids just not matter?
I guess only the fetus matters- when they're born they can die for all they care.
if they die at the hands of Cat-lick priests is that a better way to go than living a decent life free of their guilt inducing clap-trap for everything a person ever does?
I hope this sick institution dies out in a few more decades.
It's disgusting.

Submitted by BBCaddict on March 11, 2009 - 10:46am.

I believe you misspelled "Catholic". You need to put an "h" and an "o" in there, and take out that horrible "k". It's so unsightly.

Yes, the Alaskan sins were very bad. There are people who do bad things. It was and is a terrible black smear on the good work of God's mercy. It was terrible.

The institution, however, was founded by the Creator of the entire existance, so I don't see it leaving in a few decades, especially after 2000 years, and 1 billion members.
Sorry, old chap.

Submitted by Mr. Spellchecker RRC on March 12, 2009 - 12:11am.

You are truly thick. The RCC was created by Paul, who was neither an apostle nor even a contemporary of Jesus...You might want to try actually reading and applying basic critical analysis to your own holy book before spouting off such inanity.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on April 3, 2009 - 2:00pm.

THIS PERSON IS A RELIGIOUS FRAUD WHO DOES NOT GET IT. IT THINKS ITS GOD BUT IT IS NOT.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 11, 2009 - 10:23pm.

...Are there any groups who help families who have been ex-communicated or threatened to be ex-communicated from the RCC, particularly in countries where that institution has such strong sway?
...Perhaps there are groups in this country that have the resources and connections to help people here and in other parts of the world. Certainly there are pro-choice groups who can reach out to these people as well, especially the little girl.
...Humans need community. That's why they often turn to religion. These people have been betrayed by the RCC. I hope that the little girl and her mother have a place to be safe from the rapist-step-father.

Submitted by universenme on March 8, 2009 - 7:41am.

I was actually looking at comments from another story when someone asked why Catholics were not commenting on this one. I'm not pretending to be a perfect Catholic but I do try. My opinion probably does not square with the Vatican but none the less here it is: Life is sacred, but the life of an unborn child is not more sacred than that of an adult. Sexually active adults have a responsibility to use birth control if they don't want to get pregnant and to be sure the birth control they are using is being used correctly. There's really no excuse for an ooops! (certainly not in this country). Underage girls are not responsible for anything if they are being abused or molested. If a nine year old is attacked then a person who respects life will agree that in this case termination is a sad necessity in order to protect the life of the nine year old. The same is true for any rape victim. (See this is where the importance of "choice" does come in. For people who actually did have no choice they should have one, even if it includes abortion) However if you are talking about an adult (a fully functioning adult) who voluntarily consented to sexual activity without adequate birth control then she can not very well argue that she never had any choices and should carry her pregnancy to term and if she does not want to keep the child place him/her for adoption.

Submitted by cmarie on March 8, 2009 - 10:04pm.

So, it's not about Life(tm), but simply about controlling women's sexuality? See, we already knew this. You are not contributing anything new to this discussion.

You believe that women should be punished for being sexual beings (i.e., being human) by being forced to create children that they either don't want or cannot properly care for. Explain to me, please, how this is pro-child? 'Cuz I'm at a loss.

I like children and I believe they deserve to be welcomed with love and joy, have lots of time and attention from their parents, and adequate food, shelter, and educational opportunities. In short, I believe that children are persons, not punishments.

Your morals are repugnant to me.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on March 8, 2009 - 10:41pm.

a woman who is raped should have the right to an abortion, but a woman who consented to sex should not have the right to an abortion, 

is that what you said?

Submitted by Harry834 on March 8, 2009 - 11:50pm.

cmarie did not really get it right , i'm afraid. However, she got some right. A man and a woman should have sex inside of marriage. They should not withhold themselves from each other, by using barriers, especially in the act designed for the most intimate contact, and also the transmission of life. God invented sex. If done like this, it's like heaven on earth. All healthy, no disease or mistrust, or jealosies. And happiness in each other. You cant beat it with a stick. But we are pretty damaged creatures, and we steal a lot that is not ours to have, and it causes even more heartache. And it's hard to stick to your guns with all the backstabbing around you. But if you can do it, DO It. It's grand!

Submitted by folksinger on March 12, 2009 - 12:32am.

A man and a woman should have sex inside of marriage. They should not withhold themselves from each other, by using barriers, especially in the act designed for the most intimate contact, and also the transmission of life. God invented sex.

Oh, please. Not everyone believes the same religious stuff you do, you know. I don't believe we, or sex, were designed at all, especially since there's so much evidence to the contrary. you can believe what you want and have whatever kind of sex you want, but please stop pushing your god bullshit on everyone else.

Submitted by KatWA on March 12, 2009 - 6:11pm.

God invented sex. If done like this, it's like heaven on earth. All healthy, no disease or mistrust, or jealosies. And happiness in each other.

Yeah...Tell this to the many thousands of monogamous, only-ever-had-sex-with-their-husbands African and Indian women who contracted HIV from their macho husbands.

No, really, you need to educate yourself, because your silly superstitions have rendered you superlatively ignorant.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on April 3, 2009 - 1:24pm.

I'm a little confused also about how you are being a good Catholic. The RCC is against birth control-
So I'm totally confused how you can be a "good" catholic and also say you must use birth control.
Which to me exposes the entire fraud of the Catholic church- As someone here said, it is amazing that any woman could be a catholic-

Submitted by Anon on March 9, 2009 - 12:35am.

It took a lot less than this for me to reject the vile morass of misogyny and depravity that is the RCC. I was 10 years old when my mother told me about her Mexican friend who was urged by her doctor to get a tubal ligation due to the increasingly horrendous pregnancies she'd been experiencing (2 toxic that required her to receive blood transfusions and the 3rd one landed her in the ICU for 10 days). Like a dutiful Catholic, she confessed this to her priest, who promptly discommuned her. I decided then and there that the RCC was Satan. And this was before I learned about the Crusades, inquisitions, and witch burnings, let alone the shuffling/covering-up of pedophile priests and Holocaust-denying.

Submitted by BJ Survivor on March 8, 2009 - 10:59pm.