Julie,

On the one hand you talk about meaningful dialogue. Then you throw around words like inflammatory rhetoric, absolutist, fanatical, anti-choice, and extremists. You talk about "realistically enhance the quality of life for all citizens".

Ok, let's talk about "all citizens". A child in the womb is a living human being. Why are you not in favor of extending the guarantees of the Constitution of the United States to these citizens. These citizens are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness like everybody else.

Have you ever seen the aftermath of an abortion? Do you seriously believe that a child in the womb with a fully developed central nervous system does not feel pain when it is being dismembered?

Anti-abortion does not mean anti-choice but pro-choice does mean pro-abortion. People, such as yourself, Kathleen Sebelius and George Tiller are either murderers or complicit in murder whether it is legal or not.

Scott Burkhart

how serious "pro-lifers" are about extending constitutional protections to citizens in the womb. It seems this is the one murder they have zero interest in prosecuting.

These people have been in the anti-abortion movement for years, and never once do they talk about what to do about the prosecution of all these women for murder.

If we are serious about protecting the unborn the same as the born, than their murders require an equal prosecution. But the "pro-lifers" are too scared to talk about it.

Are you trying to escape your crimes?

Ouch! Linda, I'm a guy too. And a Republican to boot. Yep, an a-hole squared. No, make that cubed (forgot to mention I'm Catholic). But that probably raises the a-holeness to the seventh or eighth power. But don't hang up on me. Please. Why? I dunno, really. I guess I just love people. Women especially. I grew up with 3 sisters. As an only brother like that, you kind of learn how women operate, and how to co-exist with them: that is, you gotta love them. And when you do, you see what deeps wells of love women have to give back. But enough of the mushy bio... Yeah, I'm involved in the pro-life (anti-choice) movement. But I'm kind of nutty, and often want to break ranks with my colleagues when I go to meditate outside an abortion facility. I don't hold a sign. I don't chant anything. I just stand there, like any citizen can do, watching the people going in and coming out--just talking with my higher Power. Here in Detroit, the women (girls really) going in are usually African American. But it's not about race. It's about something that transcends race. And gender. And, I guess too, which side of the vaginal opening one happens to be on. But back to breaking ranks... sometimes I feel an urge to walk into the facility and ask if I can see the doctor. I know it's not protocol for pro-lifers, but I'd love to ask him if he (or she) wouldn't mind going out for lunch or a cup of coffee. I can't imagine it's ever been done, but it's my dream. Why? Well, I told you I love people, so I guess I'd like to just chat and cross the divide--tell him who I am, but that coffee or food is our common denominator on this occasion. If I got that far, I'd ask him or her if it's okay to ask a few questions. Mind you, I would not be doing this to try to convert him or her. Believe me on this. Just ask, or get to know. Find out why this is his or her career. Is it a love for the patients? Or the money? Or being able to run his or her own practice? We gotta love our jobs, right? And there must be something to love about his or her job. Next, I'd be honest and say that I haven't always been actively "pro-life". That would be a preface to a question of course: I'd ask if he or she was always a proponent of this line of work. If not, when did it change, and when did he become what he is now? My next, and probably final, question would be this: why (in his opinion) does this thing that he “does” divide so many people? Why is it such a boundary maker between two groups of adults? ........... I think My answer to that is because "we" think that the thing-inside is a child, and that she has a right to make it to her mother's embrace. I think his answer (and maybe yours) would be that "you" think this procedure is a right, and that it should always be an option--a choice, and forever legally available through his services... something to consider, and have done, if it is needed or wanted. To that, I ask why? Is it to cover up (or negate, or erase) a slip-up in remembering to use a contraceptive? Or is it to provide a way when there isn't readiness, or enough finances, or enough male/partnership support? Whatever the reason, I think we all have to admit that something has to be sacrificed in making this choice. Something given up--like the 350 bucks it's gonna cost, or a wasted Saturday morning, or a skipped night out later that Saturday. But is there something else given up? Well, yeah, we can agree, there is a certain amount of tissue or gell or something that has to be turned over to the doctor--something that wasn't there a week or a month ago. We know it's not a tumor. And it's not an organ (that would actually bring money IN). So we get down every time to, "What is it?" What is this thing that is causing you to dislike me, and me not to walk in and make a lunch date with that doctor? It's not my lump of tissue. It's not my wife. It's not my $350. Why do I--a stupid, Catholic guy with nothing better to do on a Saturday morning--have a vested interest in this thing? Assuming I'm not involved in "my" movement out of scorn for the women I see on those Saturdays ("You sinning whores, you need to live with consequences of your sins and not be a murderer!!!" nope, I promise you, never from my mouth, and I'm speaking honestly and from the heart)... assuming that my motives are plain and simple, and that they're about the thing-within. Can't I love a thing within a woman? I see pictures, and it looks like something I can love. It developes into something I can later see and smile at. A guy can have a liking for a woman's shape, or for her face, or eyes, or her smile or the way her hair gets tucked behind her ears. Why can't a guy have a liking for what's inside her? Hey, as I write this, I'm realizing that maybe this is the problem: (I know men are a huge part of the problem in this issue) maybe men need to stop staring at the flesh and curves and start looking at the inside--at all that's within a woman. And not just when she's pregnant! But all the time. Look at what you can do! Look at how beautifully and marvelously our cosmos put you together. Us guys--we're really a bunch of (pardon the crudeness) dicks. We need you women. Without you, this world would be a million times worse than the way we all make it now. Just chatting with ya, Linda. Wondering if there's anything you'd like to say back. If not, then just try and remember there's at least one guy you came across who said he loves you and who meant it. Just trying to imitate that Guy. Peace and warm wishes from chilly Michigan… Lenny

Dear Lenny,

Nobody who votes republican and is anti-choice 'loves' women.

That there is a human being inside the curves? Good for you. I guess some men are dummber than I originally thought!

...call me dummber, but I love it when women write to me on blogs... Coffee, Colleen? Oh, speaking of coffee, here's a book suggestion: "Over Coffee (We Shared Our Secrets)" by Julie Johnson. Two of my post-abortive sisters read it and it changed their lives. They're now involved in Rachel's Vineyard. For any women out there who are suffering because you had an abortion and you can't get past the intrusion and the haunting, there is help available. Another post-abortive assistance group is Project Rachel. If you can get to the point when you are able to name the child you lost, then life opens up--it's almost like losing 100 lbs. and makes you feel beautiful again within your whole being. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SUFFER ANYMORE LADIES.

I've had an abortion years ago, and I felt both sadness and relief. But under your sensitive guidance, I'm so happy you reminded me that I was supposed to be suffering and feeling guilty. I could prostrate myself before your alter like a good little Stepford girl. But my moral conscience, yes I have one, tells me "Thanks, but no thanks," minus a Palin accent, please. What's interesting to me is that anti-choicers resort to trying to make women feel guilty on a pro-choice website. (Please don't quibble about the difference between suffering and guilt because your narrative is that women suffer from abortions because they feel guilty about "murdering" their "babies.") Now, don't get me wrong I'm not trying to censor your speech. But I'd say that outside the anti-choicers who have a strange need to tell women how to feel and what to do, nearly 100 percent of the women who participate on this medium don't have an anti-choice point of view. Your side has tons of religious radio and tv stations that tell women how to feel and to not have abortions, etc. I would think that the kind of women you are trying to make feel guilty would be watching or listening to those programs. But that's not enough, is it? And, by the way, I have my own way of surrendering and feeling beautiful and feeling free from the weight of life. But I just don't evangelize my belief system because that would assume that I have all the answers. So, Lenny, don't worry your handsome little head about us wayward, independent, think-for-ourselves-type women who can interpret their own authentic feelings.

Lenny, Lenny, Lenny ....
It's difficult to "talk" while trying to wade through all the preaching. But you made one point that I do agree with: many patients at clinics are young, very young girls who have made a disastrous choice when it comes to sex (yeah, I know, too young according to your religious beliefs to even be having sex, but let's face reality). And most women know damn well that when teenagers have babies they face a life of poverty, and that it is very difficult for them to pull themselves out of that hole. Choices are absolutely necesscary. Fantasize all you want, but I have not had an abortion or bore children out of wedlock at any age. I am a practicing Catholic even though I think most of my friends and some of my family have abandoned Jesus' teachings. When you see the poor huddled in a doorway or a prostitute flagging down cars in the inner city or an alcoholic sleeping it off on a park bench, what do you do? What would Jesus do? I simply don't believe that Jesus would turn his back on any of those folks, and neither will I.

Gotta preach. If a four year old was gonna walk out toward the curb on a busy highway, who wouldn't yell "Stop." So much suffering here among fellow human beings who think differently than "we" pro-lifers do? It's all thinking we do here on sites likes thinks, and exchanging those thoughts. Sometimes the thoughts are share nicely, sometimes not. When it's not nice, it's not due to lack of love. Like the one who yells really loud and pretty mean-souunding when the kid's about to step off the curb. Stop!!!! Crazy, though (you gotta admit) how someone can show up here and say "i love you" during the debate in a real heartfelt way, and yet if "you" were to show up on a pro-life blog, it wouldn't be reciprocated. The pro-life "movement" is getting wiser as it realizes the days of yelling "baby killer" (or even the tamer stuff like "it's a child, not a choice") have to end. You'll start to see more, "hey women out there, we love you and we would like to ask you if you would consider taking a look at what we see and how we see it." Why? Dunno. For most of the pro-lifers, it starts with a real feeling for the suffering that comes part and parcel with abortion. We all agree, as the President said, that abortion must become rare. Something tells us as a nation that we're possibly (probably) doing a no-no by doing a million of these a year. If there's nothing wrong with it, then let it be "not rare." And again, (and here's where all of you, dear sisters really have to stop letting your hearts become so cold and rock-like) it boils down to what? A choice. Yep, we hear you. Choice is good. Free will is good. But free will has it's limits. I can't freely will to go throw a rock through the window of a clinic. It would be my choice. But it's a wrong choice, and I'd never hear the end of it. Can't just break something that belongs to someone else just because it makes me mad and feel justified and righteous. Same with you guys. You can't just go and break something that doesn't belong to you just because it makes you feel free and unincumbered. Sure, the place that houses the thing is yours. But the thing inside isn't. It didn't just get there all by itself. It did take a man--somewhere, somehow. It's connected to you. But so are conjoined twins joined to each other. It's yours, but it's not property. (we don't even call tumors our property when we ask a doctor to get rid of it). But you're treating "it" like property. What is it? No pro-abort wants to answer that? What is it that's done to the "it?" No pro-abort wants to even touch that one. Don't look at it, says the pro-abort. Look at what? What are we talking about here? Choices? Nope, that word's losing it's power and the pleasant power it demonstrates is waning. So here we are, an anti-choicer in a room full of pro-aborts. Me, and my movement, against abortion, and you against anyone who doesn't use the word choice. But Kathleen, you're going to have to start coming up with some new arguments and catch-phrases (especially when you have to start explaining why you dined Tiller and took his donations

http://www.dr-tiller.com/tillers-governor.htm

Kathleen, it's okay to be against abortion. Really. Lot's of people think a no-no of a choice. Be brave and let go of the bitterness you're chained to. Go ahead--since it should be rare.

Check out the quick one-minute vid:

http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/index.aspx

feel free to share what you saw and experienced. Peace. preachin' Lenny

Gotta preach. If a four year old was gonna walk out toward the curb on a busy highway, who wouldn't yell "Stop." So much suffering here among fellow human beings who think differently than "we" pro-lifers do? It's all thinking we do here on sites likes thinks, and exchanging those thoughts. Sometimes the thoughts are share nicely, sometimes not. When it's not nice, it's not due to lack of love. Like the one who yells really loud and pretty mean-souunding when the kid's about to step off the curb. Stop!!!! Crazy, though (you gotta admit) how someone can show up here and say "i love you" during the debate in a real heartfelt way, and yet if "you" were to show up on a pro-life blog, it wouldn't be reciprocated. The pro-life "movement" is getting wiser as it realizes the days of yelling "baby killer" (or even the tamer stuff like "it's a child, not a choice") have to end. You'll start to see more, "hey women out there, we love you and we would like to ask you if you would consider taking a look at what we see and how we see it." Why? Dunno. For most of the pro-lifers, it starts with a real feeling for the suffering that comes part and parcel with abortion. We all agree, as the President said, that abortion must become rare. Something tells us as a nation that we're possibly (probably) doing a no-no by doing a million of these a year. If there's nothing wrong with it, then let it be "not rare." And again, (and here's where all of you, dear sisters really have to stop letting your hearts become so cold and rock-like) it boils down to what? A choice. Yep, we hear you. Choice is good. Free will is good. But free will has it's limits. I can't freely will to go throw a rock through the window of a clinic. It would be my choice. But it's a wrong choice, and I'd never hear the end of it. Can't just break something that belongs to someone else just because it makes me mad and feel justified and righteous. Same with you guys. You can't just go and break something that doesn't belong to you just because it makes you feel free and unincumbered. Sure, the place that houses the thing is yours. But the thing inside isn't. It didn't just get there all by itself. It did take a man--somewhere, somehow. It's connected to you. But so are conjoined twins joined to each other. It's yours, but it's not property. (we don't even call tumors our property when we ask a doctor to get rid of it). But you're treating "it" like property. What is it? No pro-abort wants to answer that? What is it that's done to the "it?" No pro-abort wants to even touch that one. Don't look at it, says the pro-abort. Look at what? What are we talking about here? Choices? Nope, that word's losing it's power and the pleasant power it demonstrates is waning. So here we are, an anti-choicer in a room full of pro-aborts. Me, and my movement, against abortion, and you against anyone who doesn't use the word choice. But Kathleen, you're going to have to start coming up with some new arguments and catch-phrases (especially when you have to start explaining why you dined Tiller and took his donations

http://www.dr-tiller.com/tillers-governor.htm

Kathleen, it's okay to be against abortion. Really. Lot's of people think a no-no of a choice. Be brave and let go of the bitterness you're chained to. Go ahead--since it should be rare.

Check out the quick one-minute vid:

http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/index.aspx

feel free to share what you saw and experienced. Peace. preachin' Lenny

Ugh, I'm sick and tired of seeing conservative nutjobs attacking women, minorities, and anyone who doesn't hold their "values" on progressive websites such as these! Guys like the ones who have posted here so far make ALL of us look bad too. I'm a genuinely pro-choice male and I'll admit that I don't believe in any sort of rhetoric that demonizes innocent women, doctors, and people living in poverty for taking part in a safe, consensual medical procedure. What these anti-choice or "pro-life" miss far too often about why we call ourselves "pro-choice" is because WE don't FORCE people to get abortions: We just want them around just in case the woman doesn't want or (more importantly) CAN'T take care of a child for any number of reasons or to save a woman's life when something goes wrong during the pregnancy. Instead of trying to understand this point, conservatives throw FORCED STERILIZATION, ABORTION BANS, and STUPID, IDIOTIC "abstinence-only" programs! They also INTENTIONALLY confuse the SHAME they force women to feel for getting an abortion for "guilt" for their own ideological purposes! All of it is just sheer ideology and no substance! I'm a perfectly rational man, but on this issue I'm afraid I have to side w/ the dominated group on this one. Another thing: I've yet to see any SOLID EVIDENCE for their claims which I'm going to need to be swayed from my position (FYI the person CAN'T be a conservative or a crackpot either). Before I end my rant (and I apologize to the people who agree w/ me for this long rant too), I'll end w/ a quote: "The well-fed man cannot understand the hungry one." (In other words, you can't understand a problem you haven't experienced you anti-choice morons!)

Spankings. Yep. Love em. Came from growing up with just sisters. Learned a lot from that. Couldn't punch em in the boobs. Couldn't pull hair. Couldn't use a fist. Those were the rules. Could only wrestle, and only then until someone cried. They could do anything to me. I guess my dad thought that having no brothers--this would toughen me up. Had to learn how to fight smarter, like hiding the older ones' tampons and maxis. That backfired, though. They pinned me down and stuffed five of them in my mouth. I felt, well, violated. So, in a nutshell, this coffee time with you babes is pretty pleasant. There are more manners here than in the other blog I ventured into with the unrepentent pedophile priests. Now they fight dirty.