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North Dakota House Passes Egg-as-Person Bill

Kay Steiger's picture

On Tuesday, one body of North Dakota's state legislature voted, 51-41, not only to ban abortion, but to define life as beginning at conception. Such a measure, considered extreme even by pro-life standards, would have far-reaching consequences on women's health.

State Rep. Dan Ruby introduced the legislation, which declares that "for purposes of interpretation of the constitution and laws of North Dakota, it is the intent of the legislative assembly that an individual, a person, when the context indicates that a reference to an individual is intended, or a human being includes any organism with the genome of homo sapiens."  

"It was at the bottom of the calendar and we didn't expect [the House] to get to it, so it caught us a little bit by surprise," said Tim Stanley, senior director of government and public affairs for Planned Parenthood Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota. "This bill dangerous, far reaching, and allows government -- not women and families -- to make critical decisions about health care." Some state legislators have been quoted  saying the intent of the measure is not to ban abortion outright. However, many legal experts agree that defining life as beginning at conception would affect access to birth control and emergency contraception as well as affect in vitro fertilization. "I'm not sure if this is naivete or if this is sincere," Stanley said. "The bottom line is that our attorneys have looked at this and are extremely concerned." 

The state's legislature, in a slightly more robust year for anti-choice legislation than usual, will also be considering other anti-choice legislation this session. Other bills under consideration would require the state's only abortion clinic to place signs outside declaring that no one can force a woman to have an abortion, and legislation that would mimic South Dakota's "informed consent" legislation, a requirement that abortion providers must read a statement to women seeking abortion care stating that the procedure "will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being." The state legislature is also considering a measure that would resolve not to adopt a Freedom of Choice Act. "It's a sort of anti-FOCA," Stanley said. But because it hasn't been introduced in Congress, "it's a complete red herring." 

Stanley hopes that these other, "less extreme" measures that he believes will probably pass, will be enough to "placate" the anti-choice community in North Dakota's legislature. Stanley also notes that his Planned Parenthood affiliate has only been in active in the state's legislature since 2007 and is the only pro-choice group that advocates at the state's legislature.  

"The grassroots pro-life base in North Dakota very vibrant," Stanley said. "This movement, if it had more of a foundation, be it money or what have you, that they would be a substantial group. And that I find fairly alarming." During the panel hearing on the so-called personhood legislation, Stanley said he followed more than 90 minutes of anti-choice testimony by five or six anti-choice groups with a about six minutes of testimony pointing out the unconstitutional nature of the legislation. 

The personhood bill will go on to the state Senate by the end of the week, and Stanley says it is likely not to be voted on until the end of the legislature's session, in April. Stanley believes that ultimately North Dakotans may not want to draw national attention with a challenge to Roe. If the bill does pass, Planned Parenthood's affiliate will begin reaching out to the medical and religious community to begin building a coalition of support to fight the measure. 

"My experience had been that this legislature is grounded in reality, as opposed to some other legislatures," Stanley said. "South Dakota is not the most rational legislature when it comes to this kind of stuff. They're known as being slightly out there and willing to take those high-profile risks to fight this fight. My feeling is that North Dakota is just slightly more reticent to do that. To their credit they're not a state that looks [for] and seeks undue attention." 

Egg-as-Person in Pro-Choice Maryland

A state legislator in Maryland has proposed a similar measure. The state seems like a strange place for such a measure; it has an overwhelmingly pro-choice legislature and passed a law that codified Roe v. Wade in 1992. "It's public relations for them," said Wendy Royalty, public relations director of Planned Parenthood of Maryland. "There's very little likelihood of [the bill] passing at all." 

Delegate Don Dwyer, a socially conservative delegate who also introduced a ban on same-sex marriage this week as well, introduced the legislation last week. The judiciary committee will consider the legislation and the chairman, Delegate Joe Vollario, is rated anti-choice by NARAL Pro-Choice Maryland. But Maryland's house has an overwhelming pro-choice majority, Royalty said, so it is most likely that the bill will be killed in committee. 

"Nobody wants to see a bill like that get on the floor because all it does is waste everybody's time," Royalty said. "We've seen the anti-choice people introduce bills that appear to be more reasonable, but this one will not be perceived this way." Three other states have introduced similar "personhood" measures: North Carolina, Montana, and Alabama. 

The lesson we might draw from the pushes for personhood legislation in these two states is that it pays to have a legislature that views anti-choice bills as a waste of time.  In North Dakota, a strong grassroots anti-choice lobby can go far with incremental legislation because the legislature is far more amenable to its cause -- even if it's hesitant to pass an all-out ban. While many resources aren't devoted to Midwestern states until direct attacks on Roe are presented, these states might have an easier time fighting both incremental and more sweeping anti-choice legislation if a strong anti-choice grassroots movement there didn't make being an anti-choice legislator worthwhile.


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Banning abortion and believing a human being begins at conception are not "extreme" views. They are just common sense positions. All abortions are murder because they snuff out an innocent human life without due process of law -- the very definition of murder. To those who reject the word "murder" to describe all abortions, tell me, please, what you call the taking of an innocent human life, without due process of law? In fact, abortion is banned now precisely because it is murder. Murder can never be made legal -- NEVER. As for when human life begins -- PLEASE! This is NOT rocket science. Look in any biology book or encyclopedia or go on You Tube and put in the phrase "birds and bees." A human being begins when an egg and a sperm unite, at fertilization, conception.

John Lofton, Editor
TheAmericanView.com
Former Fetus
JLof@aol.com

Submitted by John Lofton, Recovering Republican on February 18, 2009 - 9:34pm.

Banning abortion and believing a human being begins at conception are not "extreme" views. They are just common sense positions.

Banning abortion is an extreme position, actually. Believing that "a human being begins at conception" is just a boring semantic game.

All abortions are murder because they snuff out an innocent human life without due process of law -- the very definition of murder.

Uh, no. The definition of murder is...

1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a: something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b: something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>

That comes from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. What dictionary are you using?

To those who reject the word "murder" to describe all abortions, tell me, please, what you call the taking of an innocent human life, without due process of law?

That depends on how you define "human life." If it's, say, anything with human DNA, then one possibility is "biopsy."

In fact, abortion is banned now precisely because it is murder.

Thankfully, this is only the case in Catholic hospitals and other such religiously-oriented institutions. Could you imagine if it were banned across the entire nation? Good thing that's not likely to happen.

Murder can never be made legal -- NEVER.

Uhh... could you tell that to the U.S. military, please? Please with a cherry on top?

As for when human life begins -- PLEASE! This is NOT rocket science. Look in any biology book or encyclopedia or go on You Tube and put in the phrase "birds and bees."

Wow! I didn't know you were a fan of Ben Lee and Mandy Moore! So you were at the Take 40 Live Lounge when they performed?

A human being begins when an egg and a sperm unite, at fertilization, conception.

And while the human being is a one-celled zygote, make sure to give him/her a white blood cell to bounce around, or maybe even a cute little bacteriophage to play with. Because when you're a one-celled human being, it can get awful boring waiting to mitosis to get in gear. You know what I mean, right? I mean, you did go through that, being a former fetus and all....

Submitted by Anonymous on February 18, 2009 - 10:21pm.

North Dakota as a state gets it right. One of only three states to show a suplus in the tough times brought on by Barry Obama and the current administration. Great job Republican Gov. John Hoeven. Great job on the abortion issue as well.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 26, 2009 - 4:44pm.

i'm so ashamed of the immature behavior displayed by the people who voted for the loser.
and, yeah, president obama brought on the tough times - yep, in just one month this country went from golden years to a recession.
get over it - those of us with intelligence had to put up with evil conservatives for EIGHT YEARS. 30 days & the losers are already whining & moaning.

Submitted by vivienne on March 1, 2009 - 1:36am.

im sorry, but the US constitution protects our beliefs as individuals, and you may BELIEVE that life begins at conception with all your heart BUT under our US constitutional rights we, the rest of us americans, are protected in OUR beliefs . This means that YOU CANNOT LEAGALY impose your beliefs on any other citizen. IF you do not believe abortion is right, dont have one. And if you support pro-choice, that supports the idea that people who dont believe abortions are right SHOULD NOT GET THEM, while also allowing the people who want or need them to get them.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 10:06am.

I'm sorry to use net-speak, but...omg. 'Former fetus'?

John Lofton, are you a really bad parody? If so, props for hilarity.

Submitted by Emma on February 22, 2009 - 7:33am.

John --

When I first read your post, and your "Former Fetus" tag line, I briefly entertained the distinct possibility that your post was sarcasm. Sadly, after reading the ensuing discussions, I realized that you are entirely serious. Wow.

Clearly you feel passionate about your position, which I respect. I wish I saw some evidence that you respect the positions of those that disagree with you. An intelligent, passionate debate can spark wonderful ideas and new areas for growth -- however, when people assert their beliefs as somehow absolute, using phrases such as "common sense" (when it is anything but) and "the very definition" (when defining something in a biased and inaccurate manner), it is difficult to maintain a logical dialogue. Your assertions that followed your original post were wrought with inaccuracies, ignorance, and not a small amount of prejudice.

It is irresponsible for any of us to define other's belief systems. You believe that life begins at conception, and overlay "science" to support you. I, by contrast, believe that life begins when the being becomes sentient -- and I also use "science" to support my position. It is illogical to me to accept the assertion that "life" is contained in a small mass of rapidly dividing cells only beginning to differentiate. If I were to accept that definition, then I would also have to accept that "life" existed BEFORE conception, as anyone who remembers videos from science class could argue that sperm certainly are "alive!" (Perhaps eggs are not quite so animated, though if they can "die," they must have been "alive" beforehand)

It is also illogical to me to accept that a woman and a fetus have "equal rights" -- I will not launch into a human rights rant here, but I WILL say that such a belief lies predominantly in an individual's definition of "life." Since this varies widely based on perceptions and ideology, it is certainly NOT something that should be legislated.

It seems you are quite passionate about your beliefs, and that is admirable. Sadly, many in our society are apathetic about significant issues that affect their lives and the health of their society. Still, I wonder how empathetic you are toward opposing views. Some of the statements you make are -- frankly -- a little bit concerning. At times your posts honestly appeared to indicate that you do not truly understand the core issues. Legislation such as that being evaluated in North Dakota has far sweeping potential to adversely affect the freddoms of our society as a whole -- your opponents have some very good points.

It is truly my hope that such dialogues will spark empathy on both sides, and enable people to realize that this issue has no clear solution. For now, I will embrace the choices I do have -- I am ideologically opposed to abortion, but recognize that is MY ideology, perhaps not the ideology of others. I do not believe in abortion, so I won't have one (kind of simple, really). However, I am thankful that others who believe differently have access to safe options based on their own belief systems and perceptions. I am blessed to live in a country where I have the freedom to choose what is best for my health and my life as a whole, as do others. God Bless America :-)

Submitted by DocS on February 25, 2009 - 1:16am.

And here we go again.

John, how do you envision this law playing out in the real world?

For example...hot tubbing increases the risk of miscarriage significantly, especially during the first trimester. Would advocate for legislation restricting women of childbearing age from indulging in a jacuzzi?

Curious minds want to know.

Submitted by ahunt on February 18, 2009 - 11:39pm.

"Such a measure, considered extreme even by pro-life standards, would have far-reaching consequences on women's health."

Actually, most pro-lifers accept what science, sound reasoning, and this bill all state: that life begins at conception or fertilization. It's the very heart of the pro-life movement. To call this extreme by pro-life standards is, well, unreasonable at best. Hopefully, this bill will have far reaching consequences on the health of the mother and the fetus.

To me, this whole article points out either the reluctance or inability of many pro-choice advocates to counter the argument that life begins at conception. Instead of attacking the legislation head on by reasoned arguments about when life does begin (or at least why it hasn't begun at conception), the idea is simply passed off as the "extreme" measures of "slightly out there" or "not so rational" people.

When you can't argue with the message, kill the messenger, right? Maybe that is not what you intended, and I am not trying to be rude, but that is how it seems to me.

In all honesty, Kay, I would love to hear your thoughts and criticisms of the argument that life begins at conception. Obviously, I am pro-life, and we will disagree, but if we can't even begin to state our positions rationally without resorting to ad hominem attacks, how can we ever get anywhere?

After all, if life DOES begin at conception, shouldn't we be protecting it? And if it DOESN'T, well then you are right, we need to overturn this kind of law and get on with the abortions.

So, I would love to hear your thoughts on why life doesn't begin at conception, and when it does begin.

Submitted by Paul on February 18, 2009 - 11:48pm.

Hopefully, this bill will have far reaching consequences on the health of the mother and the fetus.

Oh, yes. It definitely will. Pregnant women with cancer won't get chemotherapy for fear it will kill the fetus. Women of childbearing age will probably be banned from many jobs for fear that on-the-job exposures will harm a fetus. And if women lose their jobs, they lose health insurance. Then where are they?
.
It's not a question of when life begins. It's a question of balancing rights. Until viability, the pregnant woman's rights trump all. Even after viability, a woman's right to life and health will trump that of a fetus. We don't force people to go on dialysis or donate organs to help another; why should a pregnant woman be forced to support another if her own life/health is in jeopardy?
.
This bill, if it becomes law, will indeed have consequences. Negative ones. And legislators who claim that "this wasn't what they intended" are either lying or deluded.

Submitted by Dr. Dredd on February 19, 2009 - 12:16am.

Dr. Dredd, I'll start by saying that pregnant women must, and indeed already do, sacrifice some freedoms because of the life (or potential person if you prefer) that they carry. These must reasonable precautions, though so lets address the worrisome consequences you raised in your first paragraph.

"Pregnant women with cancer won't get chemotherapy for fear it will kill the fetus." If the mother is not treated for the cancer, it will kill her. Since the mother and the fetus have EQUAL rights to their lives, it is reasonable to administer chemotherapy to the mother to save her life, in light of the fact the death of the fetus is not the intended result. (On a side note, does anyone know if a fetus can or has survived chemotherapy treatment?)

"Women of childbearing age will probably be banned from many jobs for fear that on-the-job exposures will harm a fetus. And if women lose their jobs, they lose health insurance."
Why, because they could be pregnant? I'd like to see the legal basis for that claim. If they were pregnant, they should avoid the risk of harmful exposure anyway, because it is a living human being they carry. Just pick up any embryology textbook, or even a book written in 1933 by Planned Parenthood's own Alan Guttmacher called Life in the Making: The Story of Human Procreation. All agree that when conception is complete, a new life has begun.

"It's not a question of when life begins. It's a question of balancing rights. Until viability, the pregnant woman's rights trump all. Even after viability, a woman's right to life and health will trump that of a fetus"
Why? You can't just throw out statements like this and not back them up with reasons. Without the requirement for reasoned arguments, all I have to do is say "no, you are wrong", and we get nowhere. Why, if life begins at conception, are rights endowed at some later point? And what does viability have to do with the fetus? After all, the point at which a fetus becomes viable is dependant on OUR abilities and limitations, not that of the fetus.

"We don't force people to go on dialysis or donate organs to help another; why should a pregnant woman be forced to support another if her own life/health is in jeopardy?"
There are a couple of problems with this analogy. This is a mother/child relationship we are talking about, how would you feel about the situation if it was a mother who refused to give a kidney to their son or daughter? We would all be horrified if a mother refused to give up her kidney and watched her child die, and rightfully so. Parents have a responsibility towards their children, because we brought them into this world. Indeed, it is the greatest responsibility in the human experience. The donor in your analogy is not the cause of the recipients condition. Parents are the cause of the fetus' condition. And I really do mean both parents. Men who abandon their pregnant girlfriends/wives/etc get off waaaay too easy in our society.

Submitted by Paul on February 20, 2009 - 2:54am.

Wait, so a woman can get a medical treatment that unintentionally but forseeably kills her child? You can't just throw statements out like this. Wheres that exemption to homicide laws? or involuntary manslaughter laws? Someone has to take an action to deliver or receive the chemotherapy knowing in advance it has the potential to endanger the child - and even if you know there is a potential, when that danger does occur you are held accountable for doing so when children are at stake.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 3:13am.

If parents are the cause of the fetus condition, then if its born needing an organ due to prenatal development as such then they are the cause of that too. You can't say they are only the cause of conditions we desire to happen. All sorts of issues happen during pregnancy and fetal development that are entirely natural and are known outcomes...just not the ones we're hoping for.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 3:19am.

Can you kill someone to save yourself from a natural death, and especially if you've been deemed to have 'chosen' the condition? Death is a natural and known condition of pregnancy, no less than any of the other consequences of pregnancy.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 3:37am.

"Dr. Dredd, I'll start by saying that pregnant women must, and indeed already do, sacrifice some freedoms because of the life (or potential person if you prefer) that they carry. These must reasonable precautions, though so lets address the worrisome consequences you raised in your first paragraph."

And there you go, Paul. You are in fact arguing that a blastocyst/embryo/fetus should be granted greater rights under the law than the living, breathing woman.

Now carry your argument through to the logical conclusions. If a blastocyst/embryo/fetus is entitled to "equal" protection under the law, then there is virtually no realm of human endeavor that women may not be excluded from, based on the potential for harm to the b/e/f. Employment, hobbies, food intake, physical activities, etc... all have the potential to impact negatively on a pregnancy.

What you are advocating is a legal foundation for the wholesale removal of women from public life, setting the stage for government control of all aspects of women's lives...

Sure you wanna go there?

Submitted by ahunt on February 20, 2009 - 11:34am.

There are a couple of problems with this analogy. This is a mother/child relationship we are talking about, how would you feel about the situation if it was a mother who refused to give a kidney to their son or daughter? We would all be horrified if a mother refused to give up her kidney and watched her child die, and rightfully so. Parents have a responsibility towards their children, because we brought them into this world.

Blew by this earlier, Paul. Permit me to point out that however horrified people might be...there can be no law FORCING anyone to give up an organ for anyone else.

Submitted by ahunt on February 25, 2009 - 10:19pm.

in either my response to Kay's 2nd comment on when she thinks personhood begins, or my latest novel reply to your latest post.

What can I say, brevity is not my thing.

Submitted by Paul on February 26, 2009 - 3:09am.

Well Paul, I'd love to hear how you would go about protecting the life you claim exists at conception?

What limitations would you impose on all women of childbearing age? Think carefully here. Rationally, the only way to "protect" blastocyst/zygote/embryo from the moment of conception is to assume that all women of childbearing age are pregnant at all times, and restrict women's lives accordingly.

You up for it?

Submitted by ahunt on February 19, 2009 - 12:16am.

Many here seem to think the sole purpose of this law is restrict women's rights so that they are quarantined barefoot in their kitchens from their first period to menopause. This law states the requirements for personhood, it states nothing about the requirements to protect personhood.

Personhood is defined so that our inalienable rights remain, well, inalienable. It does not mean that we stick women in holes so that nothing bad happens to their babies. If that were the case, we'd ALL have to be stuck in holes, because we are ALL persons, and therefore we'd ALL have to be protected.

Submitted by Paul on February 20, 2009 - 3:13am.

Its not about how we go about protecting the lives of anyone else...it would be about protecting the lives of children where parents have an obligation and there are specific laws on child endangerment that come into play for the parent or guardian.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 3:28am.

Not following, Paul. Either the blastocyst/embryo/fetus has the same rights as any other person or it does not. There is no mushy middle.

I train horses for a living, a high risk occupation. If I were to take a header off one of my horses while carrying my two month old infant, resulting in harm or death to my child, I would be charged with serious crimes. What, under the proposed law, is the difference if I, 3 months pregnant, get tossed, resulting in a miscarriage? I have willfully endangered the pregnancy by my choice of occupation, and under the personhood definition...just killed a person.

Please carry the consequences of this proposed legislation through to the logical conclusions.

Submitted by ahunt on February 20, 2009 - 11:11am.

Paul, this is a repost, but it gets to the heart of the argument.

Kaiser Permanente researcher De-Kun Li, MD, PhD, found that women who used hot tubs or Jacuzzis after conception were twice as likely to have a miscarriage as women who did not.

"Based on our findings I would say that women in the early stages of pregnancy -- and those who may have conceived but aren't sure -- might want to play it safe for the first few months and avoid hot tubs or any exposure to hot water that will significantly increase body temperature," says Dr Li. "Although the finding is still preliminary, it is prudent for women to take such precautionary measures to reduce unnecessary risk of miscarriage."

The study, "Hot Tub Use during Pregnancy and the Risk of Miscarriage," found that the miscarriage risk went up with more frequent hot tub or Jacuzzi use and with use in the early stages of a pregnancy. Furthermore, among women who remembered the temperature settings of their hot tubs or Jacuzzis, the study found some indications that the risk of having a miscarriage may increase with higher water temperature settings.

The study was conducted among 1,063 women, and participants were recruited in the study on average at 40 days of gestational age. The information on hot tub or Jacuzzi use was obtained through in-person interviews.

This is the third study on miscarriages released by Kaiser Permanente in the last two years. In August, the British Medical Journal published a study showing the increased risk of miscarriages in women who used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). Exposure to high levels of magnetic fields -- especially early in pregnancy -- can also significantly increase a woman's risk of miscarriage, according to research published in Epidemiology in 2002

Pay attention here, Paul. Assuming hot-tubbing is high risk behavior that can result in spontaneous abortion:
What is the moral distinction between a pregnant woman who, with intent, takes 2 hot tubs a day and successfully miscarries, and the pregnant woman who takes 2 hot tubs a day, and without intent but aware of the risks, also miscarries?

By your own reasoning, under this proposed legislation, a law prohibiting women of childbearing age from taking a jacuzzi is entirely consistent and logical. As you've already stated, you would oblige women to sacrifice their freedoms and rights based on the potential for harm to the b/e/f.

Submitted by ahunt on February 20, 2009 - 12:27pm.

just a quick post to say that I hope to be able to sit down and post some replies at the earliest tonight, but more likely tomorrow or Sunday. (Gotta have some fun w/ friends and family this weekend). I will reply though, and I'd like to hear your responses.

Anon & others, I will get back to you too (well, maybe there is more than one of you, I'm not sure, a handle at least would be helpful). It will take time to reply to you all though.

Submitted by Paul on February 20, 2009 - 4:04pm.

Appreciate the reply, Paul.

Meanwhile, folks can ponder the following:

1) My girlfriends, one who competes in off-road biking, and another who races motorcycles...would like to know if they would be obliged to take a pregnancy test before every competition, and be denied the right to compete if the test indicated a pregnancy?

2) Would women who possess a short luteal phase be obliged to undergo (hypothetical) treatment to ensure their fertilized eggs the best chance for implantation? Remember kids...life begins at conception.

3) Would pregnant women be subject to public monitoring of their habits, lifestyle, employment, physical activities, relationships and medical decisions?

Paul...you cannot have it both ways. You cannot claim superior rights for the b/e/f while simultaneously insisting that those rights exist only within reason. By claiming superior rights for the fertilized egg...draconian restrictions and vile public intrusion becomes reasonable.

Submitted by ahunt on February 20, 2009 - 10:53pm.

From 4/2008: "Surprisingly, the United States ranks 41st in maternal mortality in the world and dead last among industrialized nations, despite our unprecedented wealth and advanced medical technology. Sadly, maternal mortality is the leading killer of women of reproductive age throughout the world" Rep. Lois Capps.

From 7/08 at salon.com:
"Scott Moss, a professor at the University of Colorado Law School, points out, "If a pregnant woman is really two people with exactly equal rights, then it is not clear the
pregnant woman can undergo any medical treatment that jeopardizes a fertilized egg."

Zygote Personhood is the first step, people, lest you forget Bush wanted to do with the Health and Human Services Rule pushed through at the eleventh hour that originally tried to redefine common birth control as an abortifacient. Remember that?

Why should I be surprised that many of the reader' express such inhumanity to women?

Submitted by littleblue on February 22, 2009 - 6:50pm.

I may not get to everyone tonight, be patient though, I mean to reply to everyone that has replied to me.


"Either the blastocyst/embryo/fetus has the same rights as any other person or it does not. There is no mushy middle."
ahunt, I completely agree. However, your criticisms of this law and my defense of it are faulty in the following ways:
1. In stating that when I say pregnant women must (and already do) make sacrifices for the the survival of the fetus, I am stating that the fetus' rights take precedence over the mother's rights,
2. That these rights would provide the legal basis for complete control and exclusion of ANY woman of childbearing age from the public square, regardless of whether or not they are pregnant.
3. You are not saying that what the bill states is false. (This was the point of my original post on this article)


Lets start with #1.
"And there you go, Paul. You are in fact arguing that a blastocyst/embryo/fetus should be granted greater rights under the law than the living, breathing woman."
All of our rights have boundaries when they meet with the rights of others. No one has unlimited rights, they are always limited precisely BECAUSE the people around us have equal rights to us. If this were not true, I would be able to run every stop sign I saw and drive as fast as I wanted on my way home from work no matter how many times I ran over my own kids playing in the street.


Or, if you prefer, we can look at it this way. We all, always, have to sacrifice our personal freedoms for our children. I have a two year old and a three month old. There are many things that I cannot do because I have a responsibility to watch them. For example, I would love to take more continuing education to further my mastery of my profession, but it simply isn't feasible since the courses are often several consecutive days at a distant destination. My wife and I would also love to buy kayaks and do some river and sea kayaking. Again, all of this is not possible without putting our kids up for adoption, they simply take up too much time in our day. As you can see, I barely have the time to get on here and reply to all of you! :) My inalienable rights do not absolve me of responsibility towards my children.


In a society where people have equal rights, everyone's rights are limited when our purposes would violate the rights of others. This is especially true when we consider what rights are being violated. Three of the most basic rights that we have, as found in the Declaration of Independence, are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. These rights are hierarchical, we cannot pursue happiness without liberty, and we cannot have liberty without life. I cannot kill you to remove an obstacle to liberty or the pursuit of happiness. Saying that the mother must sacrifice some of her freedoms to the fetus isn’t arguing for an imbalance of rights at all, in fact it is the only way of arguing for equality of our most foundational right, the right to life.


Ok, on to the second point. First you stated this:
”What you are advocating is a legal foundation for the wholesale removal of women from public life, setting the stage for government control of all aspects of women's lives...”
And then this:
”Rationally, the only way to "protect" blastocyst/zygote/embryo from the moment of conception is to assume that all women of childbearing age are pregnant at all times, and restrict women's lives accordingly.”
You state that you are just “following the law to its logical conclusion”. I disagree completely, and here are my reasons.


First and foremost, you are operating under the assumption that the laws that would be preventive in nature, where women would be subjected to random pregnancy tests, barred from certain jobs if they were within the ages of the average childbearing years, simply to protect the unborn child from harm. Lets look at your hot tub example:
”By your own reasoning, under this proposed legislation, a law prohibiting women of childbearing age from taking a jacuzzi is entirely consistent and logical.” That’s not my reasoning at all. You are saying here that any sixteen year old girl who took a hot tub could go to jail. However, if she’s not pregnant, than all she’s done is get wet, which isn’t a crime. No judge or jury would deliver that verdict. Even if she was pregnant and didn’t know it, and even if she miscarried shortly after her hot tub incident, there is no way of know if indeed it was the hot tub that caused the miscarriage. Without causality, that case won’t hold up in court, either.


You also brought up an interesting question regarding intentions in the hot tub, so I’ll give you my answer to that, too.
”What is the moral distinction between a pregnant woman who, with intent, takes 2 hot tubs a day and successfully miscarries, and the pregnant woman who takes 2 hot tubs a day, and without intent but aware of the risks, also miscarries?”
The distinction is as you stated it; the intent. It’s malice verses negligence. You could possibly build a case in court here (note this is a reactionary case and not a preventive case) IF you have enough evidence of the woman’s behavior. However, you’d still need to prove that it was the hot tub that caused the miscarriage and not something else; and considering that most miscarriages are due to chromosomal abnormalities and the rest are extremely difficult to determine the cause, this would be a very heavy burden of proof for the prosecution to bear.


But again, your example would be a prosecution of an alleged crime that has already been committed, whereas “draconian restrictions and vile public intrusion” by nature are preventive measures. It’s not like they’d set up armed guards around every hot tub, or that women would be kept under house arrest for fear of a visit to their favorite spa, which would be required to achieve “the wholesale removal of women from public life”. We just don’t operate that way, and I’ll take another of your examples to prove my point that these restrictions must (and can) be reasonable.
”My girlfriends, one who competes in off-road biking, and another who races motorcycles...would like to know if they would be obliged to take a pregnancy test before every competition, and be denied the right to compete if the test indicated a pregnancy?”
I don’t have to take a breathalyzer every time I leave a restaurant and drive my kids home in our car.
”Would pregnant women be subject to public monitoring of their habits, lifestyle, employment, physical activities, relationships and medical decisions?”
I am not subject to public monitoring of my habits, lifestyle, employment, physical activies, relationships and medical decisions for the safety of the born children I have now!
Would women who possess a short luteal phase be obliged to undergo (hypothetical) treatment to ensure their fertilized eggs the best chance for implantation? Remember kids...life begins at conception. This question is so hypothetical it is virtually unanswerable. What are the risks of the treatment? What are the side affects? What’s the efficacy of the treatment?


In regards to your horse training example, if your physician clearly recommends you not do certain activities while pregnant, and you willingly ignore his advice with full knowledge of what may happen to your child, you could be charged w/ negligence. Some people may not like that position, but if it IS a human person, isn’t that justice?


That leads me to my third and most relevant point. You aren’t saying that what the law states is false. You, too, are dodging the question of when life begins and/or when it gets rights. If what the law states is true, well then justice requires that we employ reasonable means to protect them! If the law is false, then we ought to strike it down. But before we can do that, we must show why it is false.


In summary, your conclusions are faulty because:
1. Any group of people living together will require some sacrifice of personal freedom, not because some have rights and some don’t, rather because all have equal rights (we can’t all eat as many pieces of the same pie as we want)
2. We don’t and cannot create laws that prevent every crime, because they would result in EVERYONE from being quarantined into their own little box. Rather, we use the reasonable measure of punishing crimes after they are committed.
3. You cannot argue that the statement the bill makes is false just because you are concerned about hypothetical ramifications. You can be concerned about the ramifications, but that has no bearing on whether or not what the bill states is true or false. We must examine the claim the bill makes first.


So, ahunt, when do you believe life begins, and when do you believe that human life gets human rights?

Submitted by Paul on February 23, 2009 - 1:28am.

Well Paul, like you, I'm pressed for time today...so I'm just going to take on a couple of your points now.

"All of our rights have boundaries when they meet with the rights of others. No one has unlimited rights, they are always limited precisely BECAUSE the people around us have equal rights to us."

You are not proposing equality of rights. You are conferring superior rights to a fertilized ova.

"There are many things that I cannot do because I have a responsibility to watch them. For example, I would love to take more continuing education to further my mastery of my profession, but it simply isn't feasible since the courses are often several consecutive days at a distant destination. My wife and I would also love to buy kayaks and do some river and sea kayaking. Again, all of this is not possible without putting our kids up for adoption, they simply take up too much time in our day. As you can see, I barely have the time to get on here and reply to all of you! :) My inalienable rights do not absolve me of responsibility towards my children."

Irrelevant. There is no law preventing you from reordering your lives to suit your own desires. Permit me to point out that you are FREE to make the choices you've made.

"First and foremost, you are operating under the assumption that the laws that would be preventive in nature, where women would be subjected to random pregnancy tests, barred from certain jobs if they were within the ages of the average childbearing years, simply to protect the unborn child from harm."

Again, you miss the point. Absent a legal foundation, such restrictions are unlikely to pass constitutional muster. You are advocating for a legal foundation for precisely these kinds of intrusions and limitations. Consider the following:

Pregnant women would be legally barred from smoking under a proposal being considered by lawmakers in Arkansas, the Associated Press reported June 13.

State Rep. Bob Mathis (D-Hot Springs) said that fellow lawmakers should study whether the health risks facing children born to smokers warrants a ban. Gov. Mike Huckabee said the proposal made sense, at least from a health perspective.

"I haven't thought it through all together in terms of the legality of it," Huckabee said. "From a health standpoint, heck yeah, it makes sense."

But both Huckabee and Mathis are about to leave office, meaning the proposal has little chance of progressing. Mathis also proposed a bill making it illegal to smoke in a car with children in car seats. Huckabee recently signed that bill into law, along with a measure banning smoking in indoor workplaces.

"There are a lot of things pregnant women shouldn't do. That's just one of them," Huckabee said, adding: "The point is, if you're going to make that against the law you're probably going to have to extend it to all the other things that are equally unhealthy for the child."

More later.

Submitted by ahunt on February 23, 2009 - 11:55am.

”Well Paul, like you, I'm pressed for time today...so I'm just going to take on a couple of your points now.”
Fair enough ahunt, and thanks for being patient while waiting for my reply to your criticisms. I spent a good deal of time replying to Kay, and so I had to wait till tonight to get to your comments. MellanKelley1, and ever-so-indescribable Anonymous, I hope to get to your reponses too... but please be patient with me. I’m just one little ol’ lonely pro-lifer here!

”You are not proposing equality of rights. You are conferring superior rights to a fertilized ova.”
I hope this is one those points you plan on addressing later, because you haven’t refuted my argument. I’ll restate it again; in any society where everyone enjoys equal rights, our rights become limited by the rights of others. I have the right act upon my will, or do as I please (the right to liberty) UNTIL those actions violate the rights of others. This does not mean that the other person has rights that are superior to mine, it means they have rights that are EQUAL to mine. This is the foundational reasoning behind every law from homicide laws to traffic violations.

If every person has equal rights, and the zygote is a person, than the zygote and the mother have equal rights. It is clear that we would agree with the first part of the sentence, but our central disagreement is the second part. Since our arguments for the third part of the sentence depend on where we stand on the second part, we cannot debate meaningfully about the third part until we have each clarified our stance on the personhood of the zygote. I am still waiting for your clarification on where you believe life and personhood begin, ahunt.

”Irrelevant. There is no law preventing you from reordering your lives to suit your own desires. Permit me to point out that you are FREE to make the choices you've made.”
I’ll concede that I am free to make the choices I have made, and I’ll also concede that my examples didn’t illustrate my point very clearly. However, I disagree that I can just reorder my life to suit my desires without considering my responsibility towards my childrenand not suffer legal consequences. We can’t just leave the house for a few weeks to go take some continuing education and go sea kayaking without making arrangements for our children, that would be abandonment. This does not mean that our children have superior rights over us, rather we have equal rights, so whatever we do we must also consider their rights. We have a responsibility to be mindful of the rights of those around us, especially our own children, this is the foundation of all of our laws.

If the the fetus is a person, than it has rights equal to the mother. If the mother doesn’t wish to be pregnant because it infringes upon her liberty, we must remember that an abortion would violate the fetus’ right to life. Since the mother’s right to liberty is equal to the fetus’ right to liberty, and the mother’s right to life is equal to the fetus’ right to life, and there is no escaping the fact that either the mother or the fetus will have their rights infringed upon, we must look which person will have their most foundational right violated, which would be the fetus in the case of the abortion. Therefore, the abortion is unjustified from civil rights point of view.

I think this is where you and I are missing each other here. You see, I am not saying that the fetus has a more superior set of rights than the mother has. Rather, I am saying that some rights are superior to other rights. Lets take the big three as stated in the Dec. of Ind: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. We all have a right to the pursuit of happiness, yet we cannot pursue happiness if we have no liberty to act on our will. Therefore, I cannot violate your right to liberty by making you a slave so that I can work my plantation to pursue happiness. We all have a right to liberty, yet we cannot act on our will if we are dead. Therefore, I cannot violate your right to life by running you over with my car just because you happened to be in the middle of the road I was on, and I didn’t want to stop because I would then be late for work. The right to pursue happiness is subject to the superior right to liberty, and the right to liberty is subject to the superior right to life. That’s why I said that the a woman may get chemotherapy in Dr. Dredd’s example even if it possibly harms or kills the fetus, because two people with equal rights have equally foundational rights at stake, the right to their own life; it is a wash.

”Again, you miss the point. Absent a legal foundation, such restrictions are unlikely to pass constitutional muster. You are advocating for a legal foundation for precisely these kinds of intrusions and limitations. Consider the following: [potential smoking ban for pregnant mothers proposed by Huckabee and Mathis]”
A smoking ban for pregnant women is hardly the wholesale removal of women from public life, setting the stage for government control of all aspects of women's lives..., which is what I was arguing against in the passage you quoted. More on this further down the post, but first let me ask if I correct in saying that you think it’s ok if pregnant mothers smoke? If I understand it correctly, there is strong correlation between smoking and increased incidence of prematurity, low birthrate, and an increase in SIDS. Should pregnant mothers be allowed to drink alcohol. Hell, why not let them take thalidomide, it isn’t a person, it has no rights, so why not? But then again, we don’t know if you think it’s a person or not ahunt, so we can’t really debate effectively about any of this either.

Ok, on to your next comment

Again...you are not arguing for equal rights.
You stated this premise before, and I responded with the reasons behind my statement, and you responded with your original premise without refuting the reasons behind my argument. Please, show me the error in my argument if you are going to keep saying this, otherwise we get nowhere.

”I have every reason to expect that the preventative laws will emerge, simply by noting that the vast majority of laws are preventative in nature. Feel free to give us any law that does not have at its core...prevention of a specific condition”
I will agree that the purpose of a law is to prevent a specific condition, but the point I am making is whether the law is preventive or reactionary in its execution. I’ll give you some examples. We react to a murder by arresting the suspect and trying them after the murder has happened. However, we force those that appear to be minors to show ID when attempting to purchase alcohol or tobacco. The first law is reactionary in execution, the second is preventive. In order to achieve ”the wholesale removal of women from public life, setting the stage for government control of all aspects of women's lives..., it would require laws that were prevented in nature, probably involving women taking pee tests every third step.

I am arguing that a personhood bill would not provide the legal foundation for this, as you state. Why? Because my children are recognized as legal persons, yet neither I nor my wife, nor our babysitters are subjected to anything near the preventive measures you suggest. No public monitoring, no random breathalyzer everytime I get into a car, etc.

”Well, since the unfertilized ova is not dead, I would have to assume that life began some 600 million years ago.”
Ok, I am trying hard not to be snide here. This argument isn’t rational by any sense. First off, we are clearly, obviously, irrefutably discussing when a new life within the human species arises, we are not talking about the first instance of life on the planet. Please ahunt, you are more rational than that.

”And since I make no claim as to the truth of the bill, but rather, question the wisdom, reasoning and ramifications of the bill in terms of establishing the personhood of a fertilized egg, I doubt there is any answer that would satisfy you.”
Can you explain how you can question the wisdom, reasoning, and ramification of anything if you don’t examine the truth of what it is you are talking about? That’s like saying, lets examine the wisdom, reasoning, and ramification of Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation without deciding if slaves are free people. It is basically admitting that you are offering up your opinions about something you know nothing about.

As far as the answer that would satisfy me, well, I didn’t ask for that. I asked for the answer that satisfies YOU.

ahunt, you are losing your grip on rational arguments here because you refuse address the central question in the abortion debate; are the unborn living persons? We know that the mother is, and therefore has the aforementioned rights. If the fetus is not a person, abort as needed! If it is a person, abortion is not justified.
”BTW, you may think that passing legislation without considering the consequences is rational and workable. I do not.”
I would hardly be spending all of this time debating this topic with you all if I felt that way. I really believe that if we are to stand up for something, we had better be willing to think critically and challenge our own beliefs. You do not seem willing to do this with your own beliefs about when life and personhood begins. With the exception of Kay, everyone else (including yourself) has proven my point that pro-choicers will avoid any real debate about the legitimacy of abortion.

Ok, to respond to your last comment that responded to my response to Kay (haha... its late, forgive me)

”Paul...your civility is deeply appreciated by all of us...but this one is strawman, and I think you know it.”
And likewise regarding the civil discourse, ahunt. However, I don’t think this is a strawman at all, and if you want to say my arguments don’t hold up, please back it up with reasons. I’ll do likewise. So, I don’t think this is a strawman because those questions point out that the birthing process is essentially involves a change in location. The development of the fetus has nothing to do with it. Kay had stated earlier that personhood depended on our “rationality, our experiences and thoughts and feelings”, but then she stated that personhood began at birth. Since birth has nothing to do with rationality, experiences, thoughts, or feelings, her position is utterly inconsistent, illogical, and unscientific, and impossible to apply to real life.

”Again there are statistics and there are statistics. My SIL needed a therapeutic abortion at 22 weeks due to fatal fetal defect.
In all sincerity, ahunt, I am sorry to hear that. I am sure that was tough on everyone. I can’t imagine how it would feel, having watched my wife go through pregnancy, having to lose it that late in the game. Again, my sympathies.

"You are promoting the sham argument that women dither around until "almost viability" and then suddenly choose to abort.”
Not at all! My argument had nothing do with a woman’s timing or reason’s to abort. I was simply pointing how Kay’s conflicted definition of person as occuring at birth and requiring rationality, experiences, thoughts, and feelings is impossible to apply to reality. Amillie was born at 22 weeks, therefore by Kay’s logic, either Amillie was a person and many of the 18,000 other childern aborted after 20 weeks were also persons, and therfore should not have been killed. Or Amillie was born but not yet a person because she fullfill the rationality, experience, though, and feelings requirement, in which case infanticide could be justified. (Please note, I am not saying that anyone here supports infanticide, only that this position could be used to defend it.)

Wow... late agian. I look forward to everyone’s replies. I really will try to get to some of the others as well.

Submitted by Paul on February 25, 2009 - 2:18am.

A debate can be had about whether or not rights extend to a certain area that doesn't hinge on a question of personhood per se. Not allowing a man so called “equal rights” over a woman's body doesn’t mean he’s not a person. A child's a person thought they lack the right to vote. Regardless of being a person, they don't have these rights.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 25, 2009 - 10:33am.

Well Paul, there is a bit of disingenuous sidestepping here. You ignored the following:

"There are a lot of things pregnant women shouldn't do. That's just one of them," Huckabee said, adding: "The point is, if you're going to make that against the law you're probably going to have to extend it to all the other things that are equally unhealthy for the child."

Note: ALL other things.

Yet you continue to bury your head in the sand, denying that granting superior rights to a fertilized ova will have any discernible impact on the lives of women, that the legislation will not have the effect of narrowing what employment, activities and hobbies women may participate in...while simultaneously agreeing that no law need be passed to prosecute pregnant women for engaging in activities that may be detrimental to the pregnancy. You cannot have it both ways.

And yes, Paul...you are arguing for superior rights, not equal rights. No "person" has the "right" to commandeer another person's body. The right does not exist.

You keep demanding an answer to when life begins, and I gave you one. You just didn't like it. Using the "when life begins " red herring as the standard for determining personhood is simply opinion rhetoric: insisting that a zygote is a person is as ridiculous as insisting an acorn is an oak tree.

Also, in regards to Amilie, let me again point out that miscarriages and stillbirths may be tragic for the individuals involved, but the wider world does not view such events as the death of "persons." Had Amilie been stillborn...she would not be regarded as a person.

As far as pee tests go...check out Tennessee's latest proposal. Ugly.

AN ACT to amend Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 68, relative to testing for certain substances in pregnant women.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF TENNESSEE:
SECTION 1.Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 68, Chapter 5, is amended by adding Section 2 of this act as a new part thereto.

SECTION 2.
(a) The general assembly declares that, as a matter of public policy of this state and in
the interest of public health, pregnant women who abuse alcohol and drugs pose a risk to their unborn children. Pregnant women who meet certain criteria, as determined by the department, through rules and regulations duly promulgated in accordance with the provisions of the Uniform Administrative Procedures Act, compiled in title 4, chapter 5, shall be tested for alcohol and drugs in order to encourage them to seek immediate treatment for an alcohol-related or drug-related problem.

(b) If the department levies a fee or charge for the cost of testing, it shall use the same billing and collection methods normally used by independent private laboratories. Any fee shall be waived for patients who are unable to pay.

(c) The department, in promulgating rules to implement this act, shall consider the following as indications of the necessity for alcohol or drug testing:
(1) No prenatal care;
(2) Late prenatal care after twenty-four (24) weeks gestation;
(3) Incomplete prenatal care;
(4) Abruptio placentae;
(5) Intrauterine fetal death;
(6) Preterm labor of no obvious cause;
(7) Intrauterine growth retardation of no obvious cause;
(8) Previously known alcohol or drug abuse; or
(9) Unexplained congenital anomalies.

Submitted by ahunt on February 25, 2009 - 4:38pm.

”Well Paul, there is a bit of disingenuous sidestepping here.”
Ok, ahunt, if you want to bring my attention to a point that I did not answer to your satisfaction, please do so at anytime. But please, do not ever suggest that I am being disingenuous. I have put a lot of effort into having an honest, civil debate, where I address each point that you or Kay has brought up, and I have done so by citing your comments line by line and responding to each piece. Again, if I have not answered to your satisfaction, please draw my attention to it.

”You ignored the following:
"There are a lot of things pregnant women shouldn't do. That's just one of them," Huckabee said, adding: "The point is, if you're going to make that against the law you're probably going to have to extend it to all the other things that are equally unhealthy for the child."
Note: ALL other things.”
Yet you continue to bury your head in the sand, denying that granting superior rights to a fertilized ova will have any discernible impact on the lives of women, that the legislation will not have the effect of narrowing what employment, activities and hobbies women may participate in...while simultaneously agreeing that no law need be passed to prosecute pregnant women for engaging in activities that may be detrimental to the pregnancy. You cannot have it both ways.”

You misunderstand me. Any group of humans living together in a society requires that they all restrict some of their freedoms so that the equal rights of all are protected. I acknowledge that recognizing the zygote as a human being may restrict some of the freedoms of the pregnant mother, and that these restrictions are reasonable and indeed already practiced today by the countless number of pregnant women who are currently taking their doctor’s advice. This has hardly resulted in the “the wholesale removal of women from public life, setting the stage for government control of all aspects of women's lives...”, that is what I am arguing against. A discernible impact is one thing, government sponsored quarantine is another thing altogether.

To further my point, I’ve noted that the only laws you have been able to produce don’t even come close to this “wholesale removal” and “control of all aspects” of women’s lives that you are talking about. The smoking ban is only a proposal, and one who’s own proponents admit that its legality may be questionable, and another law, that when enforced, would only encourage women to attend counseling to help rid themselves of a drug or alcohol problem, and then pay for it if they couldn’t. I still don’t see “the wholesale removal of women from public life, setting the stage for government control of all aspects of women's lives...”. You would probably argue that foundation for this will be laid if the fetus is recognized as a human person, but I have already contended that it will not, as my own children are recognized as human persons and no such draconian laws exist to protect them.

And, speaking of sidestepping, you never answered if you are ok with pregnant women smoking, drinking, or using recreational drugs, anyway. If these activities are ok, why was the use of thalidomide banned, or any other teratogen? Could it be because they pose a health risk for the child, and we recognize that the mother has a responsibility for that child?

”And yes, Paul...you are arguing for superior rights, not equal rights. No "person" has the "right" to commandeer another person's body. The right does not exist.”
I’ve already refuted this in response to Kay, but I’ll do it again.
You are correct, no one can commandeer another’s body. It is a moot point, however, because the fetus didn’t commandeer the mother’s womb. How did the fetus get in the womb? It didn’t secretly crawl through a nostril while the mother was sleeping. It didn’t use a gun to force a doctor to surgically place it in the womb. The fetus had nothing to do with its attachment to the mother. The mother put the fetus in the womb. Whether it was intentional or not, the mother is responsible for the attachment of her child to her. Everyone knows the biological purpose for sex is making babies, and that it is always a possible outcome. Arguing that someone consented to sex but didn’t consent to pregnancy is like arguing that you consent to walking a tightrope but didn’t consent to falling off. It can happen, and everyone knows it.

”You keep demanding an answer to when life begins, and I gave you one. You just didn't like it.”
No, you didn’t give an answer to the question I asked. I asked when life begins, in the clear and unmistakable context of our discussion, which is the beginning of a new human life that arises from human procreation. You answered the question of when all life originated.
That is not answering the question.

”Using the "when life begins " red herring as the standard for determining personhood is simply opinion rhetoric:”
How is debating the determining factors of personhood a red herring when the very bill we are discussing puts forth a determining factor or personhood? It is you who is throwing out red herrings when you say things like ”What you are advocating is a legal foundation for the wholesale removal of women from public life, setting the stage for government control of all aspects of women's lives...”
I am the one actually trying to discuss what the bill actually says, and you say I am throwing out red herrings?

insisting that a zygote is a person is as ridiculous as insisting an acorn is an oak tree.”
Ok, why? Defend your position.

Also, in regards to Amilie, let me again point out that miscarriages and stillbirths may be tragic for the individuals involved, but the wider world does not view such events as the death of "persons." Had Amilie been stillborn...she would not be regarded as a person.
But Amillie was not stillborn, and therefore according to Kay’s principles of personhoood she was a person, and since she defines personhood as a human life with rationality, experience, thought, and feelings, Amillie had enough of all of these qualities to meet Kay’s professed requirements for personhood. Of course this would mean that any fetus aborted after 22 weeks was actually a person endowed with human rights. Or it could mean that even though she was born, she didn’t meet the rationality, experience, thought, and feelings requirement that Kay set forth, and therefore was not a person. If we don’t consider born babies people, infanticide becomes ethical.

I am simply trying to point out that birth, which is the point at which Kay says personhood is granted, has nothing to do with the onset of the characteristics that she uses to define personhood.

As far as pee tests go...check out Tennessee's latest proposal. Ugly.
Now I am no lawyer, but as I understand it enforcing this law results in encouragement that the woman attend counseling if she is found to have a drug or alcohol problem (counseling would be a good thing for this woman), it is not forced upon her, and they would pay for it if she can’t. Also, drug tests aren’t issued at random to every woman of childbearing age as you suggested ”Rationally, the only way to "protect" blastocyst/zygote/embryo from the moment of conception is to assume that all women of childbearing age are pregnant at all times, and restrict women's lives accordingly.”, but rather only if there is enough evidence to suggest that a mother is a drug user.

Submitted by Paul on February 26, 2009 - 2:49am.

...not sure if I'll have a chance to post while I'm away. I'll be reading though, and I'll be back Monday night or Tuesday. Have a good weekend everyone.

Submitted by Paul on February 26, 2009 - 3:05am.

You are correct, no one can commandeer another’s body. It is a moot point, however, because the fetus didn’t commandeer the mother’s womb. How did the fetus get in the womb? It didn’t secretly crawl through a nostril while the mother was sleeping. It didn’t use a gun to force a doctor to surgically place it in the womb. The fetus had nothing to do with its attachment to the mother. The mother put the fetus in the womb. Whether it was intentional or not, the mother is responsible for the attachment of her child to her.

You still are dodging the issue here. I am in no way obligated to giving my children the use of my body (through blood or organ donation or any other means) to keep them alive, even if it makes me an asshole not to do it. And even if I originally say okay and let my born children be hooked up to me for life support, I am allowed to rescind that permission at any time, even if that removal results in the death of my children, even though I had sex and gave birth to them and agreed to it. I am still allowed to change my mind about the use of my body. It may make me a horrible mother, an immoral person, and an asshole, but it is still allowed.

So I fail to see why, even if I consented to sex that resulted in pregnancy, I am not allowed to change my mind about the use of my body in that one instance only, when it is perfectly legal to do so in every other instance, even if it results in the death of someone else, even if it results in the death of my own born children.

And as an aside, if you want to know why some of us get a bit testy and rude during these discussions, it is because it directly affects us as women. You're a man and you don't really have any stake in this. You may very well be sincere in your love for the almighty fetus, but you don't' have to deal with the reality that your body and your authority over your own body can be taken away at the whim of someone else. Women have to deal with that reality every second of every day of our lives, from birth to death. So yeah, it's just a bit personal for a lot of us.

Submitted by ks on March 5, 2009 - 10:40am.

So much for the hierarchy of rights, eh? I guess that's only reserved for fetuses and only when the womans bodily integrity is used...all others wanting their rights to be equally protected to this extent be damned.

Submitted by Anonymous on March 5, 2009 - 11:02am.

"1. Any group of people living together will require some sacrifice of personal freedom, not because some have rights and some don’t, rather because all have equal rights (we can’t all eat as many pieces of the same pie as we want)"

Again...you are not arguing for equal rights.

"2. We don’t and cannot create laws that prevent every crime, because they would result in EVERYONE from being quarantined into their own little box. Rather, we use the reasonable measure of punishing crimes after they are committed."

I have every reason to expect that the preventative laws will emerge, simply by noting that the vast majority of laws are preventative in nature. Feel free to give us any law that does not have at its core...prevention of a specific condition. You are correct, however, in essentially noting that negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter/depraved indifference laws will cover any lack of specific legislation.

"3. You cannot argue that the statement the bill makes is false just because you are concerned about hypothetical ramifications. You can be concerned about the ramifications, but that has no bearing on whether or not what the bill states is true or false. We must examine the claim the bill makes first."

Well, since the unfertilized ova is not dead, I would have to assume that life began some 600 million years ago. And since I make no claim as to the truth of the bill, but rather, question the wisdom, reasoning and ramifications of the bill in terms of establishing the personhood of a fertilized egg, I doubt there is any answer that would satisfy you.

BTW, you may think that passing legislation without considering the consequences is rational and workable. I do not.

More later.

Submitted by ahunt on February 23, 2009 - 2:01pm.

My girlfriends, one who competes in off-road biking, and another who races motorcycles...would like to know if they would be obliged to take a pregnancy test before every competition, and be denied the right to compete if the test indicated a pregnancy?

If you think "life" starts at conception, as Paul does, then a pregnancy test would be unhelpful. There is NO TEST to determine if someone has conceived, only if they are pregnant (medically defined as when the egg implants. your body recognizes this as the beginning of pregnancy, too, this is when it starts "behaving" pregnant, ie releasing hormones, stopping ovulation, etc.)

Basically to protect all fertilized eggs your girlfriends would have to be forbidden from their activities unless they were sterilized.

BTW, I don't really care if it's human or not. No human has the right to use my body against my will. Even multi-celled humans. Why grant single cell humans more rights than multi-celled ones??

And as to when does life start, it started around 4 billion years ago and hasn't stopped since. I believe a fertilized egg is just as alive as an unfertilized egg. That's why when you have a period, your egg dies. (how could it die if it was never alive?) Sperm LIVE for up to 5 days after ejaculation! Or are they dead until an egg gets them? That makes no sense, clearly they were alive.

How do these ppl who think pregnancy starts at conception suggest we determine who is pregnant and who is not?? The only sure-fire way to be sure would be to inspect everyone's tampons and see if the egg on it was fertilized or not. And then what? punish women who's eggs didn't implant? how do u know if it's natural or not?

If we followed through with these dumb laws and tried to protect fertilized eggs, all women of childbearing age would have to be considered "pre-pregnant" and be forbidden from a large amount of activities, since there is no way to tell if they are carrying a fertilized egg or an unfertilized egg until it's too late.

Submitted by KatWA on April 1, 2009 - 6:14pm.

Paul...you need to weigh in.

Because it really comes down to the basic question this legislation raises...are women individuals in their own right...or are women simply walking wombs?

Submitted by ahunt on February 22, 2009 - 11:51pm.

...or are they individuals in their own right carrying individuals in their own right?

Again, it all comes down to when you believe that life begins, and when human rights are granted to that human life.

Submitted by Paul on February 23, 2009 - 1:32am.

No, "walking womb" is an accurate assessment if in fact the rights of a fertilized ova trump a woman's right of ownership of her body.

Submitted by ahunt on February 23, 2009 - 2:47pm.

when you believe that life begins

Wtf does that even mean? Life began a long time ago. It certainly isn't beginning again everytime two cells join together.

Submitted by KatWA on April 1, 2009 - 6:18pm.

Killing without intent is involuntary manslaughter.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 4:11pm.

Actually, most pro-lifers accept what science, sound reasoning, and this bill all state: that life begins at conception or fertilization. It's the very heart of the pro-life movement. To call this extreme by pro-life standards is, well, unreasonable at best. Hopefully, this bill will have far reaching consequences on the health of the mother and the fetus.

Umm...

On one side, you have a fertilized, single egg cell.

On the other, you have the woman inside of which happens to be that egg.

You're saying that that egg cell is SO important (despite it being so small you can't even see it with the naked eye), that that woman has to be FORCED to carry that egg through pregnancy to birth. Whether she wants to or not. Perhaps even whether she would survive that, or not.

Yeah. That's extreme. Like, Taliban-level extreme. Please get help.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 19, 2009 - 12:19am.

My point was that this bill is not extreme by pro-life measures, which is what Kay stated in her article. YOU may think it is extreme, but it is most assuredly not extreme by pro-life standards. Google some pro-life blogs and see how many you can find any that are up in arms about the extreme nature of this bill and then compare that to the number that are in favor of it.

"You're saying that that egg cell is SO important (despite it being so small you can't even see it with the naked eye)..."
Since when does size determine importance? You can't see a hydrogen atom, but see watch what happens when you cut one in half!

Oh, and what about embryonic stem cells? They are pretty small, yet all I hear about them is their immense power and how important it is to end the life of a human embryo so we can harness this power.

"...that that woman has to be FORCED to carry that egg through pregnancy to birth."
So because this human life is SMALL, we should be able to end it?

"Whether she wants to or not."
Human life is only valued when it is wanted? Who gets to say who is wanted and who isn't? What if I told my wife I didn't want one of the two childern we have right now, should I be able to kill it? One is only three months old, is she too big already?

"Perhaps even whether she would survive that, or not."
Again, if these are two human lives, then they have EQUAL rights, and equally valuable lives. See my response to Dr. Dredd regarding the pregnant mother with cancer.

"Like, Taliban-level extreme. Please get help."
This is just immature.

You've actually supported the premise of my original post. You can't state why life does or doesn't begin at conception with any kind of reasoned argument, and you end up resorting to attacking my character by comparing me to the Taliban of all things. Thank you.

Submitted by Paul on February 20, 2009 - 3:40am.

Equal rights has never been determined to give one person the right to anothers body to maintain their life...under any condition.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 3:44am.

Embryonic stem cells are kept alive, its the cells that make up the placenta and non-fetal membranes that are discarded.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 3:46am.

This is just immature.

You've actually supported the premise of my original post. You can't state why life does or doesn't begin at conception with any kind of reasoned argument, and you end up resorting to attacking my character by comparing me to the Taliban of all things. Thank you.

So if a woman has a single-celled "human life" inside her, she does not have the right to terminate it. It doesn't matter whether she wants to do so, or how badly she wants (or thinks she needs) to do so. She HAS to nurture that single-celled organism into a baby, until it is born. There is no escape... not even when that human life is a single cell, too small for the naked eye to see.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 4:32am.

So because this human life is SMALL, we should be able to end it?

Actually, because the human zygote, embryo and/or fetus resides within the uterus of the pregnant woman, she should be the one to decide whether or not she is willing and/or able to remain pregnant, give birth and raise or adopt the child out.  How you or anyone other than the pregnant woman feel about the size of the conceptus is irrelevant.

Human life is only valued when it is wanted?

What do you mean by "human life"?  If you mean the biological life of the zygote embryo and/or fetus, it's value is determined by the pregnant woman... how you or I feel about her pregnancy is irrelevant.

Who gets to say who is wanted and who isn't? What if I told my wife I didn't want one of the two childern we have right now, should I be able to kill it?

No person has made this claim.  If you do not note a difference between your children and my pregnancy, that would appear to be your issue... not mine.  Most rational people are capable of recognizing that their children are not one and the same as a pregnant woman's zygote (embryo and/or fetus.)  Further, your fallacy that allowing women to make decisions regarding their pregnancies is somehow on par with allowing you to murder your children reflects a serious lack of logic.

Again, if these are two human lives, then they have EQUAL rights, and equally valuable live

You may opine that the biological life  of a zygote is on par with the lives of pregnant women, but I will vehemently disagree.  In addition, it is impossible to "share rights" - a woman has the same rights as any other person (in this Country at least); women do not give up certain rights immediately upon becoming pregnant.  Further, we cannot give zygotes superior rights to people (i.e. a zygote cannot force a woman to risk her life &/or health); & it would be unconstitutional for the government to have control over the bodies of pregnant women.

 

Please do describe the "life" of the zygote for me.  I would also appreciate if you would describe the life of the pregnant woman.  Also, if you could sum up why you believe that the biological life of a zygote is more compelling than the life, health and/or personal beliefs of the pregnant woman, it would be most helpful.

Thanks for your time.

Submitted by Mellankelly1 on February 20, 2009 - 11:19am.

Thanks for the replies, I'd appreciate it if you check back because I'll probably have to respond either tonight or tomorrow, what with work and kids and all. I will respond to each of your concerns though, and I really would like to hear what you all have to say about my answers.

Also, I'm still waiting to hear what everyone thinks about when life begins, or why it hasn't begun at conception.

Submitted by Paul on February 19, 2009 - 9:03am.

Personnaly, I think life begins at conception. However, I also recognize that this life is not yet a person or entity on it's own. Simply according to dictionary definitions, it can't possibly be:

Self : the union of elements (as body, emotions, thoughts, and sensations) that constitute the individuality and identity of a person

Person:
1)a self-conscious or rational being.

Entity:
being or existence, esp. when considered as distinct, independent, or self-contained

Other than a body, a fetus has no emotions, thoughts, or even sensations when almost all abortions are performed. In fact, until the fetus is self-sufficient, it has basically the same status (except for the emotion attached to it by expectant parents and such) as any other growth of cells within the body. If your definition is a set of unique DNA, cancer has a set of unique DNA, and is technically alive, but isn't considered a person either.

So having answered your question, here's mine. I hope you will have the civility to answer it. Given that a fetus is alive, how do you weigh the rights of a fetus (with no life, experiences, consciousness, attachments, or even self-awareness) against the rights of a woman (which does have life, experiences, consciousness, attachments, and self-awareness)? Personally, I think the rights of a full human being trumps the rights of a living cluster of cells. If it were the other way around (which this bill would do since it defines as a person anything with a human genome), then things like excising a cancerous lump would be illegal (given that the cancer has human genome, and has a unique set of DNA, and would therefore be a person, and is killed by excising it). There are so many far reaching consequences to this that on practicality alone it shouldn't be passed. So I'm looking forward to your answer to my question.

Submitted by Kay M. on February 19, 2009 - 2:06pm.

I appreciate your response, and the chance to have a reasoned and civil exchange. I think we might both agree to be THE civil rights issue of our times. After all, if the pro-life movement is right about this, lots of innocent people are dying, and if the pro-choice movement is right, than women should absolutely have the right to abortion. Anyway, I'll respond to your response and then answer your question!


"Personnaly, I think life begins at conception."
Alright! We can agree on something! Life begins at conception! Lets have a beer! :)


"However, I also recognize that this life is not yet a person or entity on it's own."
Ok, I can see your point (I don't agree, but more on that later). Just so that I am sure I understand, your position is that life begins at conception, but personhood begins at some later point. I am assuming that you would begin to grant human rights to this human life and the point that personhood is acheived, correct? The next logical question to help us move the dialog forward is when do you think personhood begins and what are your criteria?


"Simply according to dictionary definitions, it can't possibly be:
Self : the union of elements (as body, emotions, thoughts, and sensations) that constitute the individuality and identity of a person
Person:
1)a self-conscious or rational being.
Entity:
being or existence, esp. when considered as distinct, independent, or self-contained"



I would agree that the zygote does not have all of these traits you have listed here, but I would hardly consider a simple dictionary as a proper source for the foundation of arguments about a topic as profound as the nature of personhood in regards to human rights.


The problem is, there are many living humans out there that do not possess all of these criteria for person. Some of the severely mentally disabled are not rational. Infants are not self-conscious, nor are they rational, nor are they independent. Conjoined twins are not self-contained or independent. Yet, we still consider all of these instances to be human persons.


"Other than a body, a fetus has no emotions, thoughts, or even sensations when almost all abortions are performed."
Neither do people in comas.


"In fact, until the fetus is self-sufficient,..."
Hold on, what do you mean by self-sufficient? Newborns are anything but self-sufficient, and they people. I may be missing your point here, and I'd like to avoid misunderstandings so we can debate effectively.

"...it has basically the same status (except for the emotion attached to it by expectant parents and such) as any other growth of cells within the body. If your definition is a set of unique DNA, cancer has a set of unique DNA, and is technically alive, but isn't considered a person either."
I don't agree at all here. First off, the mother's body is a whole that has parts, and these parts are living cells. You are trying to say that the fetus is just another group of these living cells, however that is not true scientifically. Half of the physical material making up her DNA actually came from the father, so there are tiny bits of the father in that fetus, and obviously these parts did not come from the mother.


I am not only talking about a unique genetic code (although that clearly also separates the child from the mother), I'm actually talking about the physical pieces of the DNA that came from the father. So we have physical pieces from two wholes coming together to form a new whole, both in physical make up and genetic code.


Cancer does not qualify as human life anymore than one patch of skin growing on my hand qualifies as human life. The cells that make up cancer maybe alive, like the cells in my skin, but they are simply a part of my body. Your claim that regarding the "uniqueness" of cancer DNA is also questionable. If I remember correctly, and it's been awhile so it is possible I am wrong here, transcription errors that happen in any cell can result in slight (non-cancerous) changes in DNA sequence from one cell to another, yet this is not considered unique DNA. Therefore, a bad copy of DNA does not equal an entire unique genome. The special uniqueness of the zygote's DNA comes from the fact that it was formed from the combination of two separate organisms individual DNA.


Also, the cancer example doesn't work because this law states an "organism" with a unique human genome. Cancerous tissue does not consist of an entire organism.

"So having answered your question, here's mine. I hope you will have the civility to answer it."
Gladly, and thank you for answering my question openly and civilly.

"Given that a fetus is alive, how do you weigh the rights of a fetus (with no life, experiences, consciousness, attachments, or even self-awareness) against the rights of a woman (which does have life, experiences, consciousness, attachments, and self-awareness)?"
First, I am a bit confused here, you agree that a fetus is alive, but then say it has no life. Usually, when you say something has no life you either mean that it is non-living matter or it was once alive but now is dead. I will assume you mean life experience, or personal history, am I correct?
Second, and in answer to your question, I would say that rights of the fetus are equal to that of a woman (or man) because having human rights doesn't depend on any of the things like attachments, self-awareness.


Human rights do not come from what we can do (mentally or physically), they are not based on merit. Human rights do not come from a group of people getting together and deciding where these rights come from, or who they are assigned to, no matter how well meaning (or powerful) these people are.


Human rights belong to every human simply because they are human. That is why they are called human RIGHTS, and not human PRIVILEGES.


"Personally, I think the rights of a full human being trumps the rights of a living cluster of cells."
You and I are just a living cluster of cells. Is it the number of cells or just the size of the cluster that makes us different from the fetus? (I am not trying to be snarky, I believe that is a fair question).


"If it were the other way around (which this bill would do since it defines as a person anything with a human genome), then things like excising a cancerous lump would be illegal (given that the cancer has human genome, and has a unique set of DNA, and would therefore be a person, and is killed by excising it). There are so many far reaching consequences to this that on practicality alone it shouldn't be passed."
I have already addressed the cancer, and as far as all of these far reaching consequences, I would refer you to my reply to ahunt above.

"So I'm looking forward to your answer to my question." I hope it was satisfactory, I'll certainly answer further questions you may have. I really do appreciate the honest and civil debate, but I do feel that you sort of dodged my question, since you stated that life begins at conception, but you think that human rights are granted with personhood, but you never mentioned when you thought personhood began. I would be very interested to hear when you think this is, and why.


Again, Kay, thank you for the interesting and civil dialogue. And sorry for all the typos that are probably in this post, but its really late. :)

Submitted by Paul on February 20, 2009 - 5:19am.