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Not Tonight, Honey, And Who Knows Why?

By Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check

February 17, 2009 - 8:00am

Amanda Marcotte's picture

Another Valentine's Day, another round of features on sex and love, and another bout of studiously ignoring the role sexism might play in diminishing women's sexual desire. Consumer Reports published a sex poll, and once again women's on-average lower sexual desire is treated as an unfortunate but largely inexplicable phenomenon.  In this, they stuck to the mainstream media trend of talking about women's desire--the lack of it, really--without addressing any social causes for why that might occur.  Most media outlets treat women's desire as a free-standing, unchangeable misfortune brought on by fate or biology, but certainly not worth exploring in depth.   

Journalists refuse to explore polling data demonstrating a reported gap in men and women's sexual desires for the same reason people refuse to really tackle the issue in their own relationships. Even in the polling data citing the top six reasons people don't feel desire, two of the reasons given, constituting 59% of respondents, were just a restatement of the problem, and not really a reason.  (Forty percent of respondents said they just weren't in the mood, and 19% were too busy watching TV, which is a polite way of saying they aren't in the mood, since people in the mood use Tivo.)  But really addressing the reason men and women feel this gap in desire means asking hard questions about how our society treats men and women differently, and doing that means signing up for defensive responses.  No wonder journalists writing pieces on the issue avoid the question strenuously. 

The New York Times Magazine recently devoted a lengthy feature story to the "mystery" of what women want, a feature that at least took the step forward of involving women in the answer to the question, when tradition dictates that men ask each other this question and continue to be baffled that they can't come up with the answer.  ("Mad Men" took on the issue humorously, portraying a roomful of bright men who can't figure out how to find out what women want, with not a single one coming up with, "Let's ask them," as a solution.)  But despite going on for several pages on the issue, Daniel Bergner managed to avoid even entertaining the notion the our sexist society turns women off, preferring instead to dwell on portraying women as inherently perverse, narcissistic, and even masochistic.  After all, the weirder women seem, the easier it is to shrug off the responsibility of really understanding women, since it seems like an impossible task. 

Ignoring the differences in how men and women's sexualities are regarded in our society is an interesting omission, considering how obvious and pervasive these differences are.  And by "interesting," I mean, "somewhere between annoying and offensive."  The double standard between straight men and women hasn't gone anywhere, but in fact has barely been eroded by an intensive, multi-decade onslaught from feminists.  It's still women who are instructed to worry about their "number" being too high.  It's still women who have to hear that having prior sexual experience makes us legitimate targets to rape.  The words "whore" and "slut" describe women, not men.  Sexual mores have loosened somewhat, but we still live in a world where Good Girls Don't.   

To add to it, sexual desire in our culture is almost solely contextualized as something straight males have and not anyone else.  Images of nubile (presumably straight) women with no clothes on still signify "sex" in our culture.  Half-dressed women greet straight men everywhere they turn with beckoning smiles and lidded eyes, titillating men and inspiring men to think about sex constantly.  Straight women don't get near the provocation on a daily basis--is it any wonder that 60% of the men who answered the Consumer Reports survey thought about sex once a day, but only 19% of women? 

Add to that the well-known housework and child care gap.  A recent Parenting Magazine survey found a lot of women suffer a great deal of resentment towards their male partners, who they view as refusing to take on their fair share of child care and housework responsibilities.  Add it all together--the stigma against desire, the overwork, the feeling of being underappreciated, and the lack of provocation--and the mystery is not that women watch their libidos sink under the waters, but why anyone wants to chalk this up to inherent biological sex differences first. 

Not that having a low libido necessarily means trouble for the woman supposedly suffering from it. Only 12% of the women diagnosed with sexual dysfunction like low libido were bothered by it, which makes you wonder how they were defined as having a problem in the first place.  (Short answer: because men decide what's a problem in our culture.)  This study surprised a lot of people, but it shouldn't have.  When you live in a culture where Good Girls Don't, sexual desire is rarely experienced as an unalloyed good, but often brings fears of moral turpitude for women, and they may feel relieved to have desire abate.  That, and less sex, means more time for housework and paid employment, not insignificant issues in our economic times.  Considering how many women suffer body image issues, too, it's probably a relief not to feel like you have to get naked and expose yourself to judgment for many women.   

It's an indicator of how male-dominated our society is that the fact that women have diminishing libidos and don't seem to care that much about it is treated as the problem, when in fact it's merely the symptom of a larger problem--that women feel overworked, underpaid, underappreciated, understimulated, and shamed about their bodies.  If we treated the actual problems that women face, higher libidos would be the happy result, I'm sure.  But in order to do that, we'd have to treat male domination like a problem to be solved, and since few people really want to do that, instead we're left with articles that note women's lack of libido, but carefully resist asking why.


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78 comments
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Snerk...Amanda, 30 years ago, I thought I was built wrong...because the earth wasn't moving on a consistent basis.

Back then...I thought I was the problem. The BH was loving and clueless. It took some years for us to get it consistently good.

I am so grateful for sites like RH and Pandagon...our granddaughters will have the info and support they need...they will never think that they are "built wrong."

Submitted by ahunt on February 17, 2009 - 2:09am.

Check out Rosemary Basson's work on desire in long-term relationships. For women, sometimes desire happens AFTER sex is initiated--if she is feeling okay and the relationship is okay, she'll allow affection, and then as her partner goes a little further, she may begin to respond. In my sex therapy practice, a lot of women relate to this idea and feel better that they don't experience "horniness" the same way their partner does.

Submitted by Dr. Stephanie Buehler on February 17, 2009 - 10:05am.

And really not surprising.  I do think Good Girls Don't is a powerful belief, and as such I don't think a lot of women ever do develop that strong wanting.  They're never stimulated by our culture, and there's something unseemly about desiring.  If your sexual desires are only turned on when a man wants them, that does make life a lot easier.

 

But I'll bet that as female desire gets more social validation, the percentage of women who are only aroused after initiation goes down, and the percentage that feel horny goes up.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 11:02am.

Who decides what constitutes a low sex drive? Couldn't we frame it the other way and say that men have a hyperactive, problematic sex drive that needs to be controlled? I'm not saying that is the correct framing either, but it is interesting that once more, sexually speaking, women are seen as the gatekeepers, whose role it is to react to men--whether by being the "good girl" as a teen and saying no, or by being the willing partner as an adult and saying yes. In either situation, women don't get to actively assert their own desire--is it any wonder women have a hard time locating it? I also think there is an underlying issue as well--the sexual dysfunction/low libido study you mentioned was funded by three big pharma companies, whose job is to create anxiety and perceived problems so that they can treat them. These kind of studies, and the 'women have a sexual problem' articles you reference, create anxiety out of normalcy (especially when most women and men have no idea what normal means, sexually speaking), as a way to market their products. We need more conversations about a range of sexual feelings and behaviors, more understanding of what constitutes normalcy (especially across the lifespan). Thanks!

Submitted by ann whidden on February 17, 2009 - 11:46am.

Couldn't we frame it the other way and say that men have a hyperactive, problematic sex drive that needs to be controlled?

--

Actually, Ann, when it suits society, that is exactly how male sex drives are framed. Oddly enough, the onus is still on women to control it by dressing modestly, acting demurely, drinking sparingly, and never leaving the house.

Submitted by Ellen Guy on February 17, 2009 - 4:50pm.
Because women with high sex drives like myself already face a lot of stigma for it.  If we insisted that having a high sex drive was somehow unnatural, then that not only dings men unfairly, it gets women like me, too.  Plus, sex is nice and good for you.  I don't think it's something to be celebrated when people find themselves too stressed and overworked to feel pleasure.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 5:18pm.

I don't think the main point of the OC was to suggest that people with higher sex drives should be stigmatized except as a rhetorical device to show how we frame sex drives as "normal" (that is, normal male) and "low" (what we think women must be). There's no inherent justification for that framing other than male=default, because even if there were such thing as a "normal" amount of sex drive in a biological sense, we don't know what it is, we're just defining "normal" as "what men do".

I don't actually know of any women not being stigmatized for their sex drive - the difference is whether it's "too high" and they're stigmatized as sluts, or "too low" and they're stigmatized as prudes. Personally, if I stopped experiencing sex discrimination and it didn't make my sex drive increase, I wouldn't really care because, well, I still wouldn't want sex. But I think the crucial thing is that if sex discrimination were to end, we wouldn't be prescribing what sort of libidos women ought to have, certainly not based on what's normative for men, but ideally based on anything but what an individual is comfortable with.

Submitted by AnotherRachel on February 18, 2009 - 8:43pm.

askmen.com had a list of the 10 types of women that men really fall for:

3- Miss Sexual
You should be so lucky to encounter one of these! Miss Sexual loves men and loves sex -- and makes no bones about it. She's not selling it, she's not using it as a tool to manipulate men -- she just naturally craves it. Miss Sexual is not to be confused with a nymphomaniac, who suffers from psychological problems -- rather, she has somehow bypassed the female societal training of auctioning off the use of her vagina to the highest bidder. For this reason, most other women hate her, because she's giving it away free of charge. But men love her because she's a free spirit who's actually honest about her sex drive. Very rare, but worth searching the ends of the earth for.

what stigma!?

Submitted by Anonymous on February 20, 2009 - 12:06am.

"Let's ask them," is funny, because when men do they never get an intelligible answer. Of course, women can say the same thing about men. Women want feelings, men want reason. And the focus on sex is extreme. After 3 children and 7 years of marriage I expect my wife not to be as she was when we met, when everything was new and exciting. But while that part of our relationship has waned (and with a 6 month old baby how can it not?) our real relationship, as husband and wife, is far superior to what it was when we first met.

As to body issue, my wife had 3 c-sections, and has breast fed, of course she will mourn the loss of her looks no matter what I say. To blame that on men though is ridiculous. It is human nature. Men have body issues too, but it is solved by men by not looking in a mirror. Because this method works for men should not be held against us.

Submitted by beihai on February 17, 2009 - 11:54am.

"Women want feelings, men want reason."

Please.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 12:20pm.

The focus on sex is extreme, but don't blame women for that. The suggestive images of women FAR outweigh those of men. Mourning the loss of one's looks? Who told your wife that scars and sagging breasts are unattractive? Who told her that her attractiveness is tied to her body? Men don't look in mirrors? Oh that explains why you never identify yourselves as the problem. Ask your wife if your relationship is far superior to what it was before you had children and she started looking "unattractive"?

Submitted by Marilyn on February 17, 2009 - 3:23pm.

Thank you so much for mansplaining that to much! Clearly you know so much more about my experiences with body image and female sexuality than I do.

Your personal experiences are just that, personal. Your wife is an individual, and your relationship is unlike any other relationship out there, it cannot be generalized to other relationships.

Men do not have the same experience with body image than women do. Women face constant reminders of what the ideal body is for them, and are constantly told that their body is not good enough. It is far more acceptable for men to be unattractive than women--just look at any movie or TV show and count the fat, short, balding, or not typically attractive men, and the number of times they're allowed to be sexual. Now how many women can you find--and bonus points if they're not elderly, or are presented as sexual beings. Everyone feels bad about their body, but it's much, much worse for women, and comparing the male and female experiences is insulting.

And if you're not getting the answers you want when it comes to asking women what they want? Consider how hard it is for a woman to answer that, when she's been told she isn't supposed want anything beyond missionary with the lights off--and who wants that, really. Men's fantasies are catered to, indulged, and encouraged. Women's are shamed.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 5:11pm.
You treat people like stereotypes, I imagine they'll continue to frustrate you.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 5:35pm.

I like my basketball belly mister. True, both men and women have body issues. We all must be OK with ourselves first and then can project our feelings out to our lovers. It's the old I'm OK, You're OK phenom.

Communication is key. Communicate!

Submitted by K4Pacific on February 18, 2009 - 8:38am.

"Couldn't we frame it the other way and say that men have a hyperactive, problematic sex drive that needs to be controlled?" Good lord no. How can we go about doing that except chemically?
"women don't get to actively assert their own desire" Rubbish. My wife initiates far more often than I do, simply because I have let her know that from the outset I won't say no. It is she who actively asserts her desire without fear of rejection. You seem to be blaming women's own insecurity in addressing their needs on men. It is primarily a lack of communication, and if communication is not there then the relationship has far deeper wounds than the amount of sex within it. Respect, communication, and affection (love), from these aspects intimacy flows. Of course, if you are just talking about random and casual sex with practically strangers, do women really want to have a desire for that? For men that desire is far more of a burden than a gift. It is a pity you don't know that.

Submitted by beihai on February 17, 2009 - 12:08pm.

Good to know.

Also:
"For men that desire is far more of a burden than a gift. It is a pity you don't know that."

Aw, teh poor poor menz. Let me find my nano-violin.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 12:20pm.

I don't know about this. I am a feminist so I understand what Marcotte is saying but actually I do think there is some biology at play here. I am a lesbian and there is a very well phenomenon known as Lesbian Bed Death. This means that a lesbian couple has a lot of sex when they are first together and then basically rarely-never have sex again. Sexologists have confirmed this phenomenon, whether you view it as a "problem" is debatable. In studies done on it, the couple are found to be fairly satisfied with their relationship and often don't view the lack of sex as a problem. If women's lack of sex drive in a long term relationship is male driven, how do we fit into this? I know we're all raised in the same culture but even the most sex-positive lesbians I know have had this happen.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 12:27pm.

This happens in straight relationships, too. Don't you ever hear jokes about how after you get married the sex stops?

Submitted by KatWA on February 17, 2009 - 1:46pm.

I would say it is not to the same extent. There is *some* sex in straight marriages, just not as much as before. I don't think that many straight marriages have no sex. Not based on conversations I have had.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 2:45pm.

Rarely or never is a really problematic assertion to make. Sure, sex might trail off to once a month or so, but, really, is that any different than the amount of sex in long-term hetero relationships? Probably not. But because WIMENZ DON'T WANT SEX this is portrayed as 'death.' It's far from.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 4:05pm.

There's no reason to think lesbians are immune from the same social factors that plague other women, and in fact homophobia probably contributes to sexual shame.  Lesbians noticeably have very little reflection in the culture of what even to *do* in bed, and having to make it up every time strikes me as hard work, as a straight girl who tries to make it up sometimes but can also fall back on the tried and true.  There is nothing about LBD that automatically means women just aren't that sexual. 

 

With all that said, there's no real reason to think that LBD is much beside a myth.  Here's a study debunking the myth, showing that Schwartz's methodology was fatally flawed.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 5:43pm.

I am DEEPLY offended by your notion that "lesbians have a more difficult time because they have to make it up all the time." There is nothing any less natural or instinct-oriented than lesbian sex between two women who are interested in each other. That is so offensive I can hardly even believe you would say that.
As for that stupid study you quoted, it reads like a total rationalization. We don't have to be exactly like heterosexuals in order to be equal to them. It's ok if our sexual patterns are not exactly the same as theirs.
There are dozens of studies that have found the opposite of that study, not to mention the actual experiences of thousands of lesbian couples.
Whatever. I'm done.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 7:55pm.

I think she made a perfectly valid and not at all offensive point. We are taught how to have straight sex constantly... In school, at home, in movies, books, magazines, and on the internet. Even if you have no interest in ever having straight sex, anyone over the age of 12 can tell you the basic mechanics of how its done. The mechanics of lesbian sex are rarely discussed in any mainstream media. Therefore, those wishing to have lesbian sex have to "make it up".

I think you are just looking for something to get offended about.

Submitted by Elphie on March 12, 2009 - 9:28pm.

My partner and I have drastically different sex drives, and it's hurting our relationship to the point that I'm preparing to break up with her. It's not JUST that we have different sex drives - it's that she has made no effort to reconcile the difference. It's all on HER terms. I am not allowed to initiate sex because then I'm being pushy and putting too much emphasis on sex and not her as a person. But if I don't try to initiate sex once per month, which she rejects 50% of the time anyway, then I must not want her that much. After we'd been in a committed relationship for about a year, the sex just dried up and blew away, and I was left standing in the dust going, "What just happened?" This is not just limited to sex, but is a factor in many of our problems.

The biology is the basis of this particular problem, but her refusal to want to communicate with me and work on it makes it unsolvable. That she would completely write off my high sex drive as my "problem" and then not even try to meet my needs absolutely sucks.

I have no idea what social conditioning, if any, plays a role in this phenomenon. If we're going by gender-sterotypical behavior, then the roles should be reversed, because I'm the one who is the more femme one; I do all the housework, take care of pets, the cooking, etc. My partner is the more "butch" one; she loves her car, her video games, her toys, and never lifts a finger. Yet, I'm the one who wants sex, she's the one who rejects it. Based on the social conditioning theory of the female sex drive Amanda is talking about, shouldn't I be the one to reject sex?

My own experience tells me that lower female sex drive is a combination of hormone levels and relationship problems that can arise from social conditioning. I don't think the social conditioning is an issue in my lesbian relationship, but her refusal to communicate definitely makes up for it.

Submitted by Keri on February 17, 2009 - 10:01pm.

I don't think that it is clear that lesbian bed death exists in any real form and even if it did, it's not obvious that this means that there is a biological reason for it. The studies contradict one another. And if we're generalizing from anecdotal evidence (like of the people we know), then I know women in same-sex couples with quite a range of differences in the frequency of sex.

Still, I do think that the experience of women in same-sex relationships (and men in same-sex relationships too) has to be considered to get a well rounded view of what's going on, of whether low libido is a problem, and (if it is) what to do about it.

I am a woman in a same-sex relationship and my partner and I have quite different sex drives. It is *absolutely* a problem for *us*, but moreso for me than her.

I've seen many feminist discussions of the mismatch of male and female libido and I understand looking toward the larger social influences and injustice within the home as explanations of what might be going on. I can't help, though, when I read these discussions, to feel a little frustrated that there's nothing in them that seems to speak to me or our situation.

Of course, I know the point of these discussions is not to put forth a view about a phenomenon that will apply to every individual situation. But I feel like there isn't really anything that speaks to my situation.

Submitted by activistgradgal on February 17, 2009 - 10:30pm.

Many of the men are lying.

They do not initiate sex when things are old hat. They might look elsewhere simply because our society says that that is "natural",And yes, the men also experience "bed death".

The difference? The men again blame it on their woman partner. She waits for me...she does not do anything...she...and again women are on the line. Do all of the men tell you what they want? Of course not, they expect you to read their minds, just like the women are characterized as doing. And tell anyone that they have a lack of libido? Hell no. Because that makes them less of a man, and the woman in the relationship is considered as "wearing the pants".

Submitted by Anonymous1 on February 26, 2009 - 3:36pm.

So your wife's experience should be extrapolated to all women.

Of course, my wife is a human like the rest of us, capable of all the range of emotions we all have. I am sorry but you believe that communication, respect, and affection in a relationship are not good things? I simply don't pressure her into having sex, ever. It is disrespectful. Yes, I am a monster.

As to my desires for other women, I accept them but don't act on them.

And of course the stereotype of men being being less emotional (as opposed to violent) in a relationship is biologically driven. You can't just wish away 6 million years of simian evolution because it bothers you. We are far closer to Chimps than Bonobos.

Submitted by beihai on February 17, 2009 - 12:30pm.

Nobody ever said that "communication, respect, and affection in a relationship" were undesirable. I'm sorry that you apparently don't like having your sexist beliefs challenged by women, and so you feel the need to resort to logical fallacies in order to "win" the argument.

Also, spare me your prattling on about "evolution." I take evolutionary psychology claims with a boulder of salt, given how frequently they're used by sexist men to justify the status quo -- and how little actual science they're based on. Given that you erroneously assert we're closer to chimps than to bonobos, I suspect your only use for "science" is when you can use it to justify your essentialist POV.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 3:15pm.

"And of course the stereotype of men being being less emotional (as opposed to violent) in a relationship is biologically driven. You can't just wish away 6 million years of simian evolution because it bothers you."

*snicker* So, in other words, you're talking directly out of your ass. Got it.

Submitted by OH, please on February 17, 2009 - 3:26pm.

The internet is an international place and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your first language isn't English. What the above poster was getting at is the idea that you cannot take your wife's behaviours and apply them to all women. She, in fact, seems to be the exception to the rule. Because she acts as she does, this doesn't mean that all women can or will. It's what works for her, and that's wonderful. It's not typical.

Nowhere did anyone say that communication, respect and affection are bad things. Heck, no one even implied it. I could make a stronger case for cats driving tiger prawn to extinction (It's totally happening right now. Donate! Save the prawn). If you're going to use hyperbole to back your arguments, at least make it plausible.

As for what you do and don't pressure her into, well...

This isn't about you.

No one is even thinking about you. They're all too busy making their own points and cases to wonder what you do and don't talk to her about sexually. Well, until that whole 'I'm a monster' outburst. Then they were mostly thinking "chill, dude, it's just the internet".

Also, I'm seeing no evidence of a discussion on Intelligent Design vs Evolution. My money is on Darwin here. I'm not even going to address the implication that women are the 'emotional ones'. No point. You wouldn't listen. But you are not necessarily right. Just saying.

Submitted by Marth on February 17, 2009 - 6:21pm.

Thank you to "I don't know about this" above. The focus on sex is extreme. Would I prefer to be a single man having a lot of sex with different women or a happily married man with 3 young children and much less sex? Obviously the latter. Most men want to be in a happy relationship, gay or straight, as the boss says, ain't nobody like to be alone.

Submitted by beihai on February 17, 2009 - 12:37pm.

I have and have always had a higher sex drive than any of my boyfriends have had. The problem I always found was that, although I told them this, they were not very open to me initiating things. They all said they would love it if I did, but when I wanted to have sex and would try small things to get it going, there would be no reciprocation.

It seems that men have some serious things going on here. they want it when they want it and thats when I have to want it too. If they dont want it and I do, well they dont want it then. I think this does absolutely have to do with society's stereotypes about sexual roles in a relationship.

Submitted by tori on February 17, 2009 - 12:48pm.

Wouldn't it be great if all the people with low libido could match off and likewise for the higher sex drive people? Only two problems with this utopia where sex drive wouldn't be an issue in relationships: (1) we're simply not encouraged to think this way, men and especially women are not supposed to weigh sexual compatibility in choosing life partners, we want someone who gets our jokes and has the same values and blah blah blah. Hell we don't even know what's "normal," what we're supposed to expect or want because we're not encouraged to talk about our sexual beings. And (2) sex drive changes, especially for women. It's a cliche because it's true, but a huge proportion of women experience diminished (sometimes PLUMMETTING) sexual appetite after having their 1st child. So a guy meets a woman, they date, they get it on all the time. Then she gets pregnant, has a blessed event and from then on her need to mate goes from once a day to once a month if that while the poor guy's desire hasn't changed at all. Begging becomes the most common form of bedroom communication. Of course this may be only one of a series of changes the woman undergoes after child bearing, but for many guys, it's a big one.

I tell my kids to marry a woman who has already had a child, you know what you're going to get.

Submitted by Bryan on February 17, 2009 - 3:14pm.

And that's why you don't have children.

Also, that feeds into the childcare thing mentioned in the article: many women, I imagine, are too worn out from having a child to have the energy and time for sex. Perhaps if they had more help, they would be less over-worked at the end of the day.

Submitted by Takma'rierah on February 17, 2009 - 4:07pm.

Hmm. A woman is all horny until she gives birth, and then, magically, she's not in the mood for sex anymore. Surely there couldn't be any external causes for this sudden change, like exhaustion, sleep deprivation, resentment for unequal distribution of childcare and household duties, or feeling unattractive about her stetchmarked tits and flabby belly. You know, the stuff the article was all about. Nah, it's just gotta be some crazy woman thing. Them hormonez!

Submitted by Bridgetka on February 17, 2009 - 10:13pm.
The problem with these surveys is they erase the women on the other end of the bell curve, who have sex drives that are higher than the average man's.  These women---and I've been one for sure---have a whole nother set of problems.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 5:48pm.

Though I'm fairly young, I've had this experience too. It's a rude awakening! When you're gathering your ideas on sexuality from the culture, you're told that what men really want sexually is a girl who will have sex with them whenever they want. However, even when you're able to be that girl, it usually turns out that the fantasy is really about availability, and a lot of men don't know how to deal with a woman's active desire. It's a game you can't win.

Moreover, there's the idea that if a guy is turned down for sex, he's normal, maybe a little unlucky. But a girl who is turned down for sex is... a lot of unpleasant things. Usually a desperate, crazy, or stupid slut. This is the narrative painted by popular culture, it's the one that gets inside our heads. And yet somehow, guys never stop to consider this when they complain about being the ones who always have to initiate sex... but I know for me the psychological risk of initiating sex is MUCH higher.

Submitted by Jennifer S. on February 18, 2009 - 6:03am.

i've had the same problem myself in both of my long term sexual relationships. in the first one, i had the same problems you and amanda are talking about: being a girl and being rejected for sex = i have a problem. it was soul crushing, and in time, it killed my libido. i couldn't stand to be touched, i barely liked kissing, i didn't even masturbate. and my love for sex had been such a huge part of my self image, that it hurt my confidence quite a bit as well.


eventually, i got the nerve to dump that guy and started over. my sex drive came roaring back when i eventually got into a relationship with my now partner. however, he too had a lower sex drive than me. which, on the surface, kind of sucked. but he wasn't a jerk about it. it wasn't my fault that i had a higher sex drive, but it wasn't his fault he had a lower one (and it's harder for a guy to fake interest in sex, due to his anatomy. believe me, we tried that, and it's not nearly as much fun). so we compromised. i set a limit for the minimum amount of sex i could live with, but he got to choose when we actually did it. and, lo and behold, our sex drives are finally coming into sync.


also, i feel like i just have to point out that i've never met a couple in which the guy had a significantly higher sex drive than the woman. generally, it's the woman with the much higher libido in most of the long term couples i know. maybe it's that women of my generation don't suffer under the inhibitions of previous generations (i'm in my mid-20s), or maybe it's the sort of crowd i run with. the only guy i know who's ever shamed his partner for her higher sex drive was my ex, and believe me, he was just as busy shaming me for my taste in clothes, my figure, the way i wore my hair and my choice of career, so i don't take any of his opinions very seriously or as representative of the general male population.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 18, 2009 - 9:41am.

When I was in my late teens and early twenties, I always had a high sex drive.  Not drastically higher than my partner's, but equal to a little higher.  This changed in my last relationship, which was emotionally, sexually and physically abusive.  The lack of self esteem, combined with the extra work of taking care of our child (and there at the end being pregnant with our second) and being expected to keep up the house to his standards, there was no desire there at all, and there was quite a bit of resentment  aimed at him because of the state of the relationship.  By the second year of the relationship, consentual sex no longer existed.  When I got out of the relationship finally, it was over a year before I started thinking about dating again, there was a lot of healing to be done first.  When I was ready, I decided exactly what I wanted, and wouldn't settle for less.  I found exactly what I wanted, someone to treat me the way I deserve to be treated, and someone who, like me believed that women and men should be an absolutely equal part in any relationship.  When I met him online, during the months we talked before we actually met in person, we spoke of his high sex drive, and I made sure to tell him of my past relationship, and warn him how it had affected my own sex drive.  The amazing thing was, once the relationship developed to a sexual level, the problems I had been experiencing with my libido before were gone!  Now our libidos are on the same level, and I initiate sex as often or more often than he does.  The main difference in these two situations is the nature of the relationship.  In my previous relationship which was rarely to never fulfilling on any level, my libido dwindled to nothing, yet in my current, healthy, fulfilling and satisfying relationship, it has flourished despite the added stressors of now having two young toddlers rather than a single infant, working full time and still having nearly as much responsibility for keeping up the house and just as much responsibility for raising the children, the supportive nature of my current boyfriend has made these things eaasier to deal with, and has made for a more encouraging environment for sex.  The point of all this is that, in my personal experience, the difference between no libido and a more normal (for me) libido is the nature of the relationship.  If a person (and by person I mean male or female, gender doesn't matter) isn't happy in a relationship for whatever reason, the situation just isn't conductive to a strong, healthy libido.

Equal rights, equal responsibilities.

Submitted by Equalist on February 19, 2009 - 11:42am.

Other men who I've been with probably wouldn't believe it, but I had one long-term relationship where I had almost no sex drive and it was a problem. The guy didn't respect me, every problem was my fault and so forth. Is a big surprise that I didn't enjoy having sex with him?

Submitted by Elphie on March 12, 2009 - 9:39pm.

Tori, hang in there. I know a lot of men who would love to have the sex initiated. It sounds like these guys have low libidos, or have something on the side and are not up for the task at that time. It is probably the latter. Few guys ever turn down a sure thing if they are attracted to a woman unless they are being cruel, are cheating, or occasionally are too tired. If it happens often than it has to be one of the first two. And if it is, you are too good for them.

Submitted by beihai on February 17, 2009 - 12:58pm.

Beihai, you seem to have an answer to everyone, as if this is your show.

Claiming that a man who can't keep up with a woman sexually must be having an affair, or she's no longer "attractive," is ironic in a thread where you claim not to understand why women feel shamed *by men* about their appearance.

The other alternative you offer is that he's cruel. Ironic again that you don't see your own cruelty.

Why not just fuck off? We really don't need men to tell us how women's desire works. That's a big part of what got us repressed and confused in the first place.

Submitted by oldfeminist on February 17, 2009 - 6:25pm.

I honestly think the whole notion that women have lesser sex drive than men is a lot of crap. I think the real problem is, as this article states, that women for various reasons are taught not to express it, or to feel bad about feeling it. Granted, my personal experience may not reflect "universal truths" if such things exist, but the women I know have at least as much if not more drive than the men (myself included). But we're young (mid 20s), and were raised in a more accepting (albeit far from perfect) way than our predecessors. My mother never suggested to me that my desires were bad or wrong, but instead encouraged me to be smart and safe about them. And while society at large still derogates women who express their sex drives ("slut" and "whore" are perfect examples), having a parent like that makes a world of difference. I just hope that this trend will continue and improve in future generations. Both genders should be free to enjoy each other (and/or their own gender) and their own desires in safe, consensual environments.

Submitted by Jen T on February 17, 2009 - 1:37pm.

"that women for various reasons are taught not to express it, or to feel bad about feeling it."

While it's obvious and clear that women are collective slut-shamed for our entire lives, personally, I think the resentment factor is a bigger issue. This is purely anecdotal, but every single woman I know who got out of a relationship where they felt little but resentment toward their partners and had the corresponding drop in libido found that it soared right back up when they got into their next relationships. Suddenly, once they weren't having to constantly pick up his tremendous slack (in all aspects of life) and they were with someone new, they found they had no trouble with libido anymore.

I think Ms. Marcotte has it right - if we, as a society, actually addressed what is really going on here, men will have to admit they are privileged and part of the problem. Which they won't do because men in this society, apart from being blinded by privilege, also have some SERIOUS ISSUES with being told they're not gods of sex. Clearly, it's not that they aren't the best lover and significant others evah!, it's because SHE'S broken, insufficient and difficult in some way.

Submitted by OH, please on February 17, 2009 - 3:36pm.

Ms. Marcotte is oversimplifying this issue greatly. If she is going to bring up the stereotypical case where the women is overworked and the husband does share the household duties, she should also examine the opposite case. I worked 50 hours a week while my wife works 35. Still, I am expected to take care of half of the meals, cleaning, laundry etc. Yet, the typical male jobs (car maintenance, home repairs, yard work)are all left to me. I know plenty of other men who are in similar situations (as well as some who frankly do NOT perform their share of work). So let's not act as if this "issue" is happening because wives are taken for granted.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 3:57pm.

The "opposite case" you resentfully describe is a rarity, not the overwhelming majority of cases. That's why it's not examined here. I'd venture also to say that your acquaintances may tell you they're doing most of the work, but are they, in fact? Would their wives agree? Would your wife agree with your assessment? And - the obvious question - is your wife's libido in fact lower than yours (for if not, there's no basis for comparison here at all)? And if it is, have you asked her why?

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 4:55pm.

Not only am I *sure* you're correctly estimating the amount of work you actually do around the house, but I'm *sure* all those other men are as well.

Men consistently underestimate how much housework they actually do. And a big part of that is because society will cheer them for just picking up their own wet towels, whereas women are judged for not keeping house like Martha Stewart.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 8:22pm.

Great post. I think you're probably right about a lot of what may negatively affect our sexual desire.

I just wanted to add that my experience is on the other end of the spectrum. I have always been the one in the (hetero) relationship with the higher libido. I've been shamed for this, by boyfriends.

It's a lose/lose situation. It seems we're shamed if we want it and shamed if we don't.

Submitted by 42ndWaveFeminist on February 17, 2009 - 4:54pm.

The focus here is all on quantity; but what about quality?

I'm not at all surprised that overworked, overtired, overrought and over here women start refusing sex whe it's simply not an attractive enough alternative to a good night's sleep - not because of some "disfunction" of their own, but in and of itself.

There's very little mainstream intelligent, non-prescriptive, discourse about female sexuality, and in particular female pleasure. The traditional patriarchal position, of course, is that the only pleasure a woman can take from sex lies in pleasing her man. No incentive to want sex there, then. A lot of feminist thought has perversely followed that arch-mysoginist, Freud, in placing undue stress on orgasm, in particular vaginal orgasm (a position which has since proven to be physiologically untenable), which narrows the scope of sexual pleasure unhelpfully. The post-internet culture has done worse of all, by saturating our minds with the idea of women as always-on animatronic sex toys who can be reliably turned on by the twiddling of the nipple or the gnawing at the crotch, and where the semblance, the artifice, of avid and insatiable pleasure is more important than the thing itself.

There aren't enough models out there for women to draw their own conclusions about what gives them pleasure from, and zero encouragement for men to really find out - everyone is busy telling women what they should enjoy, and when they don't enjoy what's on offer (and I'm taking a very, very generous position here, since the reality is probably much closer to wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am for most women, most of the time), they're medicalised, diagnosed, problematised.

I think this is exactly ass-backwards. We can't make any meaningful statements about the quantity or frequency of sex for women without making sure that there's something there for them to even be missing out on in the first place.

Submitted by TheLady on February 17, 2009 - 5:17pm.

I have to admit that I agree with the RH lady being correct. The problem is way larger than anyone would like to admit. I myself am an attractive woman, but have been plagued with shyness and lack of self confidence for years. When you grow up in such a sexist world, it is hard. On my first date I went to a show with my boyfriend and there as big as day was a naked woman all over the screen. How could I compete with this movie star and all of her assets? I eventually just gave up as alot of our girls do. You have to either compete and be like them (scantly dressed etc)or start getting used to rejection and losers. It is hard to hear your boyfriends and others compare their partners to these actresses and singers etc. They however have the luxury of photo shop, air brushing, makeup artists, wigs etc. It is not right. Our daughters have it even harder as it is getting worse and worse. Yet when a man is attractive and dresses provocative, he is considered Gay. How convenient for men. Women barely cover their private areas and men have saggy loose clothing. Another convenience for men. men simply have no competition so to speak and they like it that way. On the other hand women have to compete everyday, from Billboards to TV to anything and everything. If they had to deal with the images of other attractive suggestive men day in and day out, they would understand. I think it is high time to fight back. Boycott movies where there are not men that are attractive and naked. Boycott anything, and anyplace that is sexist toward women. It is not a fair world but someone should clearly see that women would be far more sexual if given the same opportunities as men. I for one would love to be able to see as many good looking scantily dressed men. I have done surveys with my women friends and they feel the same way. They think that if a man can look so can a woman. they are also attracted to men who dress sexually and scantily. Why does our society not see this and start acting upon it. Why does a womens magazine have images of half naked women? Cosmo would have more readers if the cover had half naked men on it. Why do condom machines have sexy women on them and are mostly in mens rest rooms? We all know that men will not get sex unless the women want it ultimately the woman chooses. She should have condoms in her bathroom with sexy men pictures on them.
Men do not look in the mirror. I have heard that myself, but supposedly they are the ones who have the visual problem, yea right. they have no competition and when they see it they call it gay. Why are there no male cheerleaders in thongs? Why? Men would call them gay. We women would call it heaven. Why dont men have tight pants? Women would not complain. Oh Yea, men would call it gay. But its ok to be lesbian, according to men. Cant you see it? It is all too plain. Men rule the earth, women are only for sexual pleasure for them. this is why all the tv shows will show naked women but no manly parts or dressed men, no hard boners, oh my that would be....yea competition to the men with no penis's. Because the men would have to compete if they did that and then it would turn into...wait....fairness!!! Equality!!! And women who could have HOT men. We are not all so stupid that we cannot figure this out. There has to be some women in power somewhere that can make this happen. Where are they? I say Men can have a Hooters, Give us women a Woodys!! Men can judge women based on body and parts, give us some body and parts to compare. Otherwise it is just another sexist excuse.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 6:03pm.