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Peace Through Pro-Voice?

Amanda Marcotte's picture

Regular readers of RH Reality Check have no doubt encountered recent thought-provoking articles contributered by Exhale leader Aspen Baker. Aspen promotes a radical new approach to the abortion debate, which is to get past the political camps known as "pro-choice" and "pro-life" to forefront the stories of actual women who've had abortion, asking them what they want and need and shaping our national conversation, and law, in response.  Aspen calls it the "pro-voice" solution.  I'm deeply impressed with the results you can get when you treat the voices of women who need or have had abortions as if they matter most.  At minimum, it's a major step up from watching disturbing videos of Sam Brownback rubbing his uterus-free stomach protectively while implying that fetuses can talk.   

Taking women's stories out of an ideological context has great potential.  Now, many pro-choice women feel they can't admit to any mixed feelings about having had abortions for fear of fueling anti-choice fire.  And, of course, we have the growing problem of anti-choicers coaxing suffering women into blaming every problem they've had, from failed relationships to toe-stubbing, on previous abortions.  The reactions women have to abortions are as individual as the women themselves, and it's time our public discourse on the subject reflected that. 

I think the pro-voice approach has radical potential to change the debate.  But there are some things that it just can't do, and where we still need the more traditional, rights-based pro-choice movement. 

Pro-choicers could really benefit from dwelling on pro-voice methods---many of us are admittedly uncomfortable acknowledging the experiences of women who, while knowing that they had to end their pregnancies, mourn the loss of the potential child, and may even use language that implies that the potential child was real to them.  (It's a feeling well captured in Gwendolyn Brooks' "The Mother": "Believe me, I knew you, though faintly, and I loved, I loved you/All.") By refusing to face this reality, we make many women seeking help and support feel they can't find it in the pro-choice community.   

Pro-voice is having the courage to believe that our convictions can handle the messiness of the real world.  Really, we have nothing to lose.  Our nation already embraces a pro-voice attitude about divorce.  Most people are intimately familiar with the highs and lows of divorce, that it can be a relief or a gut-wrenching loss, or both, and it's precisely because we know about people's stories that most Americans support the pro-choice view on divorce, known generally as no-fault divorce.  

A pro-voice approach to abortion can help the mushy middle better understand the issue, for this reason.  Generally pro-choice Americans who support measures like parental notification might reconsider their positions if they heard women's stories.  One law about parental notification or waiting periods can't adequately deal with the diversity of women's experiences, but how will average voters know this if they don't hear stories from women who were injured by "commonsense" regulations? 

Pro-voice could have a dramatic impact on those who naïvely identify as "pro-life," but are unaware of the misogynist and racist history of the movement, or don't realize that the movement actively fights common sense measures to spare women unintended pregnancies, such as increased contraception access or sex education.  Rank-and-file pro-lifers often see a few pictures of disembodied fetuses and sign up to protest or fund-raise without giving much thought to the women they could be hurting.  Perhaps more exposure to the real experiences of real women could encourage them to take a more nuanced view, and put their efforts into more productive areas (like fighting for sex education or Title X funding expansion).   

But where I must disagree with Aspen is on the issue of whether or not this strategy will do anything to bring peace to the abortion wars.  At best, it would help drain the pro-life side of the energy of naïve activists.  That might be enough to marginalize the movement.  But it won't shut up the hardcore anti-choicers, who are not and have never been in this to protect fetal life so much as reinstitute a patriarchal society that stifles women's hopes and dreams, rewarding "good" women who practice submission with wifehood and punishing the rest with ostracism and poverty.  As such, we can expect the anti-choice movement leadership to use women's stories for poster child purposes if they can be manipulated to their own ends, or condemned if they conflicted with their ideology.  

We don't even have to dwell on figures that could, with straining, be dismissed as fringe (like Leslee Unruh) to prove this point. Rick Warren, major political player and of course, a shining star of the pro-life movement, is someone who has declared that his opposition to abortion rights is non-negotiable.  His views about abortion are inextricable from the larger tapestry of pro-patriachy views--Warren also believes wives should submit to their husbands, that gay marriage is immoral and should be illegal, and that victims of domestic violence should stay with their abusers.  Abortion bans function as part of this tapestry, a way to control and punish women.  People who view women as things to controlled and punished aren't going to be swayed by women's voices, when they don't respect them in the first place. 

The national conversation over abortion feels like war because it isn't about abortion per se. It's the most important battle in the struggle over the existence of the patriarchy.  The dictionary defines patriarchy as, "a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father's clan or tribe."  This explains why abortion matters more than anything else--if we believe that "life" begins at conception, then the father gets all the credit for making children, and this in turn justifies male authority over women and official "ownership" of children.  If we believe that "life" begins at some other point in fetal development, then the credit for new people goes to women, and patriarchal justifications dry up. 

That said, the pro-voice approach could have a powerful effect on all the mushy middle people who identify as "pro-life" even though they don't have the stomach to ban abortion or may even use abortion services themselves.  At the end of the day, the feminist side can only reach peace if we manage to dwindle the numbers of patriarchy enthusiasts until they are officially a marginal group that can be safely ignored.


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71 comments
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You are the poster child for why abortion should be legalized and easy to obtain.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 16, 2009 - 9:25am.

Despite being a woman?  And therefore I deserve respect and to be treated like a person with full human rights, including the right to determine my own sex life and my right to bodily autonomy.

 

You are correct, sir!  I am the poster child.  As is every woman on this planet who is currently oppressed by misogynist anti-choicers.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 16, 2009 - 9:56am.

Anonymous, what does your hostile remark accomplish?  If you are saying this as a sarcastic prolifer--then what part of prolife don't you understand?  The part that says everyone has a right to be here and not subjected to remarks like this?

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 16, 2009 - 12:05pm.

I was born in 1977, which was a time when abortion was legal and easier to get than any other time in history.  Yet I was born.  How did this happen?

 

Because I was wanted.  I'm grateful my mom had the choice to abort the pregnancy, because I would hate to feel like I was forced on her.  The weird anti-choice belief that none of us would be alive unless women were legally bound reproductive slaves is a funny one, since so many of us are evidence that it's not true.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 16, 2009 - 12:42pm.

"Abortion is baaaaad, unless it gets rid of some uppity female I don't like."

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 8:28pm.

They should of gotten rid of you!!

Submitted by Anonymous on February 18, 2009 - 12:57pm.

Amanda, I'm glad your mother wanted you.

But does, and did, the value of your life depend on the fact of your wantedness to your mother?

It so happens I was not wanted. So, was or is my life, before or after my birth, any less valuable than yours?

Or was it that maybe your mother was living in a more hospitable, less stressful situation than mine? and so she was freer to recognize and honor your innate value than mine was to recognize and respect my innate value?

Often when specific, existent children are unwanted, it is because the responsibility for them is so heaped entirely by the culture onto the mother's already overburdened shoulders. it's not because the children are wrong to exist.

Submitted by MarysiaK on February 16, 2009 - 2:55pm.

But I don't think a child's value depends on their wantedness.  But a pregnancy's, oh yeah.  Whether a pregnancy is valued or not depends 100% on the pregnant person.  I believe very strongly that women are human, and have a right to define their own experiences, like men get to.

 

I would hate to exist only because the law enslaved my mother.  Because I would always be a reminder, as valuable as I am, that the law didn't regard her as human.  Luckily, my mother had a choice.  

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 16, 2009 - 3:19pm.

I don't dwell on statements about my value before I existed, by the way.  I'm not thrown into an existential crisis because my parents could have chosen not to have me by skipping the sex that night and sleeping in instead.  I'm not out there demanding that everyone has sex all the time.  I fail to see how that choice is different than the abortion choice.  Had my mother not met my father, or had been out of town that day, or had watched TV instead, I wouldn't exist.  I fail to see how this gives me the right to commandeer the bodies of others to soothe my existential crisis.

 

People have value.  Potential people, not so much.  They certainly don't have more value than real people, and I include women in the category of real people.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 16, 2009 - 3:26pm.

Now me, I don't worry about the lives that didn't get conceived because people didn't have sex, or they used contraception, or had forms of sex that could never lead to procreation.

 But once a pregnancy starts--two interconnected and equally valuable lives and bodies exist.  Both equally deserving of the utmost social support, whether or not the woman chooses to raise the child herself, or have someone else raise the child.

This, Amanda, is why I oppose abortion.  It is not because I am some covert enemy of contraception, LGBT rights, or any other practices that really are about the right to one's body. Indeed I fully support all these practices in their own right, as a matter of civil liberties, and as utterly necessary measures for reducing abortion.

This is not a view based on "naivete" but on bearing witness to the reproductive sufferings of many, many women, and on a strong aspiration to create better, more humane alternatives than abortion OR ELSE.

I don't have an existential crisis over those who never came into existence at all.  But I mourn all those whose existent lives are cut short, whether this happened before or after birth, through whatever form of preventable lifetaking, not only abortion--it makes no sense to single out abortion without also challenging every other thing that takes and hinders existent lives.  And because I mourn, I work for better ways.

  

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 16, 2009 - 4:01pm.

Life does exist prior to conception...you just don't value it.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 16, 2009 - 4:27pm.

"Equally valuable" is lovely rhetoric...but if you had suggested it to the Better Half during the final hours of a doomed gestation...he would have caustically informed you...in great detail... why his wife's life and health was of far greater value.

The point being..."equally valuable" is so much hooey...if you are asking the people most directly involved. Feel free to check with the women themselves, and their husbands and kids...about who is more "valuable"...and get back with us.

I can pretty much guarantee you that the person that exists will claim the greater value.

Submitted by ahunt on February 16, 2009 - 8:16pm.

I don't deny there are medical situations where only one person's life and health can be spared, and usually that person is the woman rather than the fetus. 

I myself went through a real rollercoaster of an unplanned, medically complicated pregnancy, and it's surprising my daughter and I both survived it.  So please don't assume I don't know about these situations, and I am sorry you and your family had to go through such an experience.

 

However, in many, many more situations, the conflict between the woman and the fetus is directly created by societal circumstances that pit them against each other, causing abortion to appear the only or the least bad alternative.  if the culture learned to value both equally instead of being a partisan of just the woman, or just the fetus, the abortion rate would likely plummet...It need not be mere lovely rhetoric.

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 11:58am.

But I don't think that happens before really late in the pregnancy, sometime between 30 weeks and birth.  And even then, the actual life of the woman still matters more to me, since she's a proven, real, not potential life.

 

Sorry, I just can't rank a fertilized egg over a woman.  I don't think sperm have more rights than people, and once again, I consider women people.  The women-are-people thing really keeps me from being able to entertain the idea that we should give rights to mindless embryos.

 

But this argument is as old as the hills.  You won't budge me off my solid, unshakeable belief that women are human, and therefore deserve full human rights.  Claiming that "life" begins when men shoot off only convinces me that you really do put men over women, and think that women's hard work of 9 months is worth nothing of value.  I see no way to believe life begins at fertilization without erasing women's lives and work in a fundamental way.  To claim that men make life by ejaculating is to ignore biology in favor of sexist religious dogma.  Women make lives with the hard work of their bodies that takes  9 months.

 

But yes, of course, living, breathing human beings have value.

 

I just happen to count women in that group.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 16, 2009 - 9:57pm.

Amanda,

I think you are sorely, sorely mistaking me for someone else?

Because if you knew anything about me and what makes me tick, you might begin to understand that even if we disagree about when life begins, the difference in our opinions is not due to misogyny on my part.  You still might not find my argument convincing, but at least you would understand my motives better, which is valuable in its own right regardless of whether or not any "persuasion" takes place.

Instead of assuming that you can know the horrific motives of every "antichoicer" beforehand--why not listen for a moment to those of us who don't live down to your a priori assumptions?  Instead of just dismissing us as "naive" or deluded?

How can I *not* be aware of and value the hard, nine months work of a woman that is behind every human being on this planet?  I gave birth to and raised an unplanned daughter in very difficult circumstances, thank you very much.  And I am helping through her own difficult pregnancy and beyond as she finishes school and  cares for her child, who fortunately is OK now but was born with very serious, life threatening disabilities...thank you very much again...

 

And I have borne witness to many, many other women's reproductive stories and experiences, and helped whenever and however I can.  I have spent most of my adult life fighting for everything most prochoicers would recognize as reproductive justice, minus one issue...and that is only because I have my well-considered, agonized-over reasons to believe that ultimately lifetaking, and the situations which lead up to it, run contrary to justice.  (I certainly didn't end up there because I want to win either prolife or prochoice popularity contests!)

And it's not because I believe that there's an almighty squirt that sanctifies a human life into being.  Please. The sperm can't go *anywhere* to help create a new life unless and until it gets to the much larger egg and the egg admits it!

 In fact, during the nineteenth century, the discovery of the process of conception horrified patriarchs.  It contradicted their dogma since Aristotle that pregnancy was just the "animating" male principle taking over the "passive" and "inert" material of the womb.

 But early feminists, on the other hand, loved the discovery.  Their attitude was, "See!  science proves that women contribute equally to new lives--and then some!"

And I feel that if our culture provided more *real* as opposed to merely rhetorical respect for those equal-plus contributions, the abortion rate would plummet.  because women would really have more freedom in sex and contraception, including women who wish to remain childfree (a perfectly valid way to spend a life), and women would have more support to get through hard pregnancies and beyond without resort to abortion...What a horrid misogynist I am, to work for such a world!!

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 10:39am.
And I know that you schtick is to be the "good" pro-lifer who doesn't hate women.  I just think you're misguided.  If you take the misogyny out of the pro-life movement, there's nothing left.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 1:27pm.

You know who I am! Well good for you!  It's not like I'm hiding, or have any hidden agendas.

 

And my "shtik" is to do my best to value all lives, born and unborn, as best I can.  There is more company in this that you appear to believe. 

If you cannot accept it when I say I work for women's lives and wellbeing, too, only in a different way than you do, I can't do much about that.  But I know what is in my heart, and it is not misogyny.

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 7:37pm.

Who was claiming that life begins when men shoot off? Conception usually doesn't take place until hours or even days later.

I'm a woman who has gestated a child, and I don't see how it diminishes my hard work one iota to acknowledge the biological fact that she was a human being the entire time she lived inside of me. I think it would diminish me a lot more if I had to deny reality in order to feel that what I had done was significant.

You won't budge me off my solid, unshakeable belief that women are human, and therefore deserve full human rights.

Of course nobody's trying to. This is so dishonest of you.

Submitted by Jen R on February 17, 2009 - 1:14pm.

If you believe it's when a sperm penetrates the egg, you are, and there's no nice way to say this, saying that life begins when men make it happen.  Sure, it may take hours or days, but you're giving all credit to the man.  This view of pregnancy posits that men create life, and women merely house it.

 

If that.  Most anti-choice materials don't even show the woman surrounding the fetus.  They also strenuously ignore what a fetus looks like around the most common time of abortion, (a bag of goo, albeit a fascinating bag of goo) focusing solely on later term fetuses.  The sort of chronic dishonesty is what makes me distrustful of anyone who associates with anti-choicers, even if they claim to be otherwise feminist.  Their dishonesty should turn you off unless you share it.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 1:31pm.

If you believe it's when a sperm penetrates the egg, you are, and there's no nice way to say this, saying that life begins when men make it happen.

If you ever once listened to someone who disagreed with you instead of telling them what they were *really* saying, I would fall over dead of shock.

I do not interpret the biological reality of sexual reproduction as meaning that only men's contribution counts. That is a distorted and sexist interpretation, and I would appreciate you not imputing it to me.

Sure, it may take hours or days, but you're giving all credit to the man.

No. You are wrong.

I give credit to myself and my partner for co-creating my daughter's life. I give credit to myself for sustaining her life and meeting her needs as she developed. And I give credit to HER for being a separate organism whose development was self-directed. I didn't build my daughter a brain, you know? Once her father and I started her on the way, she built it herself. I'm not going to take credit for that in an attempt to prop myself up. I don't need to -- what I actually did was hard enough and important enough. I don't need to refer to her with ignorant and demeaning language such as "a bag of goo" to assert my own personhood, either.

Submitted by Jen R on February 17, 2009 - 2:14pm.

Amanda I honestly don't see anyone trying to tell you that women are less than human. Believe me if someone was trying to say that we'd all be straightening him out but you seem to be the only one who interperted any of the previous comments that way. I'd be curious to know which commenter you believe said or meant this. Also the idea that life probably begins at thirty weeks gestation. You might want to rethink that. Recently, I spoke with another parent waiting for her preschooler. He had just turned three. He was born three and a half months premature and when he came out of that school he was the happiest healthiest little guy. Jabbering away and didn't miss a trick. You would never have known he was premature but for being a little smaller than the other kids. He obviously wasn't born dead. He was born alive. At 24 weeks.

Submitted by cmarie on February 17, 2009 - 1:34pm.

This seems to be the crux of what Amanda is getting at. It may sound TMI, but it makes the point. The man squirts, the woman endures the 9 months. It is fair to proclaim the latter as significantly more difficult.

That said, I've read a little on the topic of embryo development, and it seems that the entire molecular process is one that begins before conception, and the sperm and egg go through many journeys. Then the embryo does its own thing, as Jen R said, "self-directed".

However, these molecular jouneys traveled by sperm, egg, and embryo are not what women and men experience. Women always experience the nine months of burden (more than I could describe or imagine) whether or not they wanted it. A man will stay and help his partner if he is good. Jen R's husband did this. But other men do not. But either way the women must ALWAYS bear the nine month burden, while the men only has to squirt.

Jen R's husband - and the many husbands, boyfriends, and partners who are as nurturing - play an important non-biological, but spiritual role in supporting the mother and child-to-be. But they do not represent the whole of menkind. And the desire to be a mother does not represent the whole of womenkind.

 

Submitted by Harry834 on February 17, 2009 - 6:31pm.

"I honestly don't see anyone trying to tell you that women are less than human."

Look, the bottom line is that when you describe yourself as  'pro-life' you're saying that you wish to see Roe overturned and abortion criminalized once again and that, politically, you work towards that goal.

 In order to take such a  stance one has to dehumanize and depersonalize other women to an extraordinary degree while simultaneously practicing deep denial about the very real and widespread  suffering such a change would cause. You have to pretend that all other women are or should be just like you.  There's no doubt that in trying to overturn Roe and criminalize abortion you are trying to force other women to conform to your belief system and in doing so you would deny other women whop do not agree with you the  basic rights of freedom of conscience, religion and the right to bodily autonomy. And if that isn't dehumanizing hatred it's a pretty good imitation

Submitted by colleen on February 17, 2009 - 7:49pm.

I'm not sure why you bring this up.  Are you implying that my position regarding fetal life is as absurd as giving equal rights to sperm cells or ova?  I've been told repeatedly by some prochoicers that as a prolifer I am supposed to have funerals every time someone menstruates or ejaculates, but sorry..I am not that ridiculous!

If that's what you're up to...Of course sperm cells and ova by themselves are simply part of one organism.  They are no more distinct, rights-bearing lives than any other cells belonging to the organism, in and of themselves.  But if a sperm and an ovum combine, there's a giant shift, there's the start of a new organism.

Now of course that doesn't settle the question of whether that new biological human life is to be regarded as a socially human life as well.

But as a disabled woman whose family hails from several genocided ethnic and racial groups, I am very wary of any attempts to exclude any biologically human lives, born or unborn, from the definition of socially human lives. Especially on the grounds of "dependency" or "biological inferiority."

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 16, 2009 - 5:19pm.
Your stance is that a woman's bodily autonomy ends if a sperm manages to get hold of one of her eggs.  This is fundamentally sexist, ranking not just men over women, but men's fluids over women's rights.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 16, 2009 - 9:59pm.

Amanda,

Totally right on.

Jodi Jacobson

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, Senior Political Editor on February 16, 2009 - 5:48pm.

Amanda,

 

I am so glad you have taken this on.  You've laid out some potential effects of a pro-voice approach and asked some great questions. 

 

The primary thing I want to clarify is about "peace."  Peace is not the absence of conflict and in no way am I suggesting that there will be a time when everyone will agree on abortion. That's not possible, and in fact, is not ideal in my mind. Our individual and cultural values about abortion are deeply rooted in who we are and how we see the world, some of which you have pointedly laid out in your article.  

 

Rather, peace is about how we deal with and approach the conflict that is inherent in human existence.  There are many stages of peace and ways to peace and what it gives us is a less-adversarial, less divisive cultural discourse and climate around abortion.  This can be good for so many reasons.  In particular, and from the viewpoint of Exhale whose constituency is women who have had abortions, less war and more peace is better for everyone's emotional well-being.

 

What you are suggesting is that pro-choice should win the war, because pro-choice is a morally better position and because your opponnets are really bad in all kinds of ways.  This is why and how conflict and war continues.  We use the ways we have been wronged or hurt or "the truth of who they really are" to justify our continued investment in conflict, in winning and in war.  

 

That is one way to go and is for sure the most common way we deal with conflict here in the US, especially conflict where so much is at stake and where there are deep and fundamental differences that make it hard to imagine resolution. 

 

I am suggesting we make investments in a different kind of approach  and that we hold onto the vision and the possibility that a new day is possible, that peace is possible.  I don't accept that what we have now is all we can hope for, but just a little bit better.  

 

I would also like to encourage the readers to check out the comments that follow a recent interview with me that is posted on the blog Mother Talkers: http://www.mothertalkers.com/story/2009/2/11/172855/669. It is only the second time in four years that this blog has covered abortion and its gotten its mommy members talking. I believe a pro-voice approach invites new conversations that would not normally be heard, and it is more voices that we need on this issue, not less. 

 

I also want to thank you for helping me get more clear on what I want to write for my next article in my series "peace for the abortion war." I can't wait to finish it and read your response!

 

Submitted by Aspen Baker, Exhale on February 16, 2009 - 7:12pm.

"We use the ways we have been wronged or hurt or 'the truth of who they
really are' to justify our continued investment in conflict, in winning
and in war. "

 

But...

If the facts support that many of these individuals and groups will continue to spread lies and create these anti-freedom laws, then isn't it our duty to call this out and advocate stopping them?

And the act of "stopping them" is far more practical than the concept of revenge, which seems to be where you were going in that statement I pasted. Were you?

I'll agree that sometimes the anger of our side might be counter-productive (and I don't have examples of this, just imagining it), but isn't there a need to see our opponents for who they truly are, not as we wish them to be?

I advocate a case-by-case judgment of each individual and group. We should not have to choose between "assuming the best" and "assuming the worst". Let's assume neither, until we have facts to support our judgment of a certain group, a certain set of groups, a certain individuual.

And it seems Amanda has backed up her claims, yes no?

Submitted by Harry834 on February 16, 2009 - 7:37pm.

The former deals with avenging wrongs past. The latter deals with stopping wrongs present and future. I advocate for the latter.

Submitted by Harry834 on February 16, 2009 - 7:53pm.

"What you are suggesting is that pro-choice should win the war, because
pro-choice is a morally better position and because your opponnets are
really bad in all kinds of ways."

 

This trivializes  what Amanda had to say to an insulting degree while simultaneously denying the realities of anti-choice tactics and goals.

 

 

 

 

 

Submitted by colleen on February 16, 2009 - 8:03pm.

If the data (facts, observations, properly measured empiricals) say that the anti-choicers do these terrible things and can't be reasoned with, then we deal with that reality.

If the data does not support this, then we work with a different reality.

Should we trust someone or not? It all depends on the accurately recorded observations. Let's give the benefit of the doubt to those who show proof of trust (through their actions, behaviors, all observed)

Submitted by Harry834 on February 16, 2009 - 8:11pm.

Thank you, this is good and encouraging to hear.

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 10:41am.

Apologies that my attempt to summarize seemed insulting or trivializing -  not my intention.  And, when I think of all the wars and all the conflicts in all the lands and all the horrible things that have been done by and against others because they are different, because someone else treated them worse, first, the abortion war pales in comparison.  And, if it is possible for those peoples to find new ways to be together, then we certainly can too. We have a choice in how we respond to the actions of others: we can be informed by their actions but they need not determine ours.

Submitted by Aspen Baker, Exhale on February 16, 2009 - 10:08pm.

I agree with you that forefronting the voices of women who've had abortions has a great deal of power to calm some of the hair-pulling on this issue, but I think it's fundamentally going to be pro-choice.  The axis of the debate is over whether or not women should have equal esteem and rights to men.  Anti-choicers are, in my experience, either patriarchs commited to an entire litany of anti-feminist actions to restore women to gender roles they think are appropriate, the old-fashioned barefoot and in the kitchen stance.  And then there's pro-lifers who've been sucked in by the baby rhetoric and haven't considered how it's fundamentally sexist to deny that women make babies with hard work and instead imply that only the man's effort counts. 

 

This latter group can be appealed to by putting a human face to the issue.  Women who have abortions are objectified as voiceless victims by the anti-choice movemen at best.  More often they're ignored completely---all women are.  Fetuses are portrayed like in this ad---invariably male, floating out in the world with no reference to a woma, and much later in the pregnancy then in the vast majority of abortions.  This erasure of women's work, women's bodies, women's voices, and women's lives bespeaks a deep misogyny that drives the movement.  If people in it haven't really thought about these ramifications, they're probably going to shaken awake by women's voices on the issue.  But if they really don't care, and the leadership of the anti-choice movement doesn't, then they won't budge an inch.

 

I simply don't think the moral standing of the two sides is equivalent.  Pro-choicers have major flaws, but on the whole, they are committed to equality and truly committed to life (both existence of and quality of).  They are also pretty straightforward about their motivations and the feminism that drives it.  It's about promoting the welfare of women, and pro-choice behavior usually reflects this.  Not flawlessly, but beliefs and actions are pretty consistently pro-woman.

 

But I see a disconnect between claimed beliefs and actions in pro-lifers.   Ampersand drew up an interesting chart on this, showing the disconnect between the stated belief (abortion is murder) and the demonstrated belief (abortion bans are part of a patriarchal agenda).

 

The thing is, I see a lot of hardened pro-lifers grow more sympathetic not just from hearing women's voices, but being exposed to the fundamental dishonesty that drives anti-choice activism. 

 

I pretty much agree with you.  I've flinched when I've read pro-choicers who say that we should impress upon women who get abortions their need to support the pro-choice movement, when that's probably not a good time to approach anyone.  We shouldn't forget the human people we're fighting for.  But we also shouldn't forget that this is fundamentally a fight over rights and whether women should have them, and the axis of the legal battle turns on that question.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 16, 2009 - 10:16pm.

I think my question for you is, if this is a fundamental debate about rights, which is where the conflict has been for the last 35 years, what needs to change, and how can it change, so that its not another 35 years like this? 

Submitted by Aspen Baker, Exhale on February 16, 2009 - 10:34pm.

Thirty-five years seems like a long time, but in the grand scheme of things, it's really not.  We're trying to overturn thousands of years of patriarchy, and that's not going to be a small task.  It took suffragettes over a centurty to get the vote for women, and not one of the original suffragists lived to see it happen.  

 

Compared to other social justice movements, the pace of change for feminism has been remarkable, actually.  You look at how hard it's been to get even a modicum of justice for African-Americans in our society.  It took decades and a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people to get slavery abolished, and immediately a series of different methods of keeping black people down and their labor cheap cropped up---sharecropping, segregation, wage slavery.  The Civil Rights Act wasn't signed until 101 years after the Emancipation Proclamation and still things have not improved for a huge percentage of black people who are still stuck in poverty and treated like second class citizens.  Oppressive social forces are incredibly stubborn, and oppressors are, too.

 

Honestly, the legalization of abortion happened with remarkable speed, for various historical reasons.  I also think it's taken on the flavor of being a last stand issue for the pro-patriarchs.  After all, pregnancy, more than anything, is what makes men and women different, and putting control of it in male hands is a powerful symbol of male power.  It also, for pragmatic reasons, maintains the patriarchy one family at a time.  Look at the Bristol Palin situation, and you have all the hopes of anti-choicers bundled up in one shot---that instead of going to college and getting jobs where they compete with men on equal footing, teenage girls can have pregnancy used against them to streamline them into young marriages and low-paid, pink collar work or no work at all.  For young women living in povery, unintended pregnancy works to perpetuate the cycle.  Middle-class, rich, poor---the point is that mandatory childbirth keeps you down in all sorts of ways.

 

This is where we have more most radical agreement---we're in this to prove that women are human, and our institutions should exist to help humans, not hurt them.  I think pro-voice works on two levels for that reason---it helps pro-choicers establish that women are human and deserve rights, but it also establishes that women are human and deserve empathy, which is much harder to define legally but just as critical.

Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 9:31am.

Amanda,

Personally, I wish you would try harder to listen to those who are trying to explain to you that their position on abortion is *not* motivated by a zeal to impose "mandatory motherhood" or force teen moms into bad heterosexual marriages and bad jobs.

 

You don't have to agree.  but I wish you wouldn't leap to the conclusions you do about us.  Trying to listen would be a real work of peace.

Just as prolifers try to make peace when we honor the fact that prochoicers can have thoughtful and compassionate motives, and try to work with prochoicers in reducing unintended pregnancies and abortions. 

If you are confident in your own prochoice stance, what do you have to lose by listening to these complexities?

 Any stance that is based on "win-lose" rather than looking for "win-win"--whether it is an antiabortion or abortion rights stance--will cut out large areas of human complexity.  And so it cuts out possibilities for substantive alliances and for respectfully held differences.  This just adds to the climate of hostility and frustration that arises inevitably when people feel unheard and disrespected.

Like Aspen, I would rather not have another 35 years of this.  There are a lot of us who don't relish the prospect either. We have to find something better than this war-to-the-death of "Woman v. Fetus."

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 10:59am.

"I wish you would try harder to listen to those who are trying to
explain to you that their position on abortion is *not* motivated by a
zeal to impose "mandatory motherhood" or force teen moms into bad
heterosexual marriages and bad jobs."

 

I don't care what 'pro-lifers' believe their motivations to be. I care about the inevitable and horrible results of public policies they support. Should y'all succeed in recriminalizing Roe v Wade it would indeed  impose mandatory motherhood on millions of women just as the agenda of the religious right devalues the lives of women and girls and limits our lives. You may not LIKE that conclusion but the results you list so mockingly are precisely some of the results of recriminalizing abortion.

"and try to work with prochoicers in reducing unintended pregnancies and abortions. 
."

 

With NFP? Because that's what you were advocating for a few days ago. It was clear that it was more important to you to sell and validate a 'family planning' method with an outrageously high failure rate even for women in stable, monogamous relationships than to reduce unintended pregnancies and abortions amoungst Title X recipients. 

 

Submitted by colleen on February 17, 2009 - 12:34pm.

Right on colleen, I'm not much concerned about their motivations either but share the concern about the results of their policies. Not all of us believe that life begins when the sperm penetrates the egg or in mandatory motherhood. I don’t value the embryo the same as women, nor do I translate equal value to include rights to my body for a fetus.

Submitted by Anonymous on February 17, 2009 - 2:32pm.

Colleen, I don't believe women should be criminalized for having abortions.  The real problem is that women lack other and better choices.  When those are available, the abortion rate will take care of itself. 

if anyone should be criminalized it is a culture that so often places women  in situations where abortion looks the only or least bad way.

 

Why, for example, should a poor woman and her child have to sacrifice , simply because the company she works for denies her right to a living wage and works against their right to health care?

 

Colleen, after Harry's questions below, I will post some info about FAM and its effectiveness.

 

If you look at the comments on Cristina Page's article re the FAM/NFP researchers, you will find a number of prochoicers who also defend the method.

And why do you assume I haven't done anything to promote access to ALL methods for poor women who rely on Title X?  I have done things to support Title X expansion, and encouraged others to do the same.

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 7:45pm.

if we do not care about what moves our respective and different passions, on this or any other important issue, then we fail to recognize one another as equal human beings who all have something to offer--regardless of who is "right" or "wrong."

 by the way colleen i do not think fears of involuntary motherhood and concerns about what happens to young moms are trivial and contemptible.  not in the least.  i share these concerns, i just don't think abortion, lifetaking, belongs in the repertoire of solutions.  that's different  from saying these issues about motherhood are dismissable.

if i didn't share these concerns i would not for example be taking care of my grandson now so his young mom can go to her college classes and his young dad can get better pay on the night shift.  i would not advocate contraception and open, ethical adoption..but bye for now, the baby needs a new diaper!

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 9:38pm.

"Colleen, I don't believe women should be criminalized for having abortions"

 
That's a clumsy tapdance on your part. My point was that you and other 'pro-lifer'  folks DO want to see Roe overturned and abortion criminalized. This is what folks mean when they speak of being 'pro-life''.If y'all succeed in having Roe overturned a good many women will be jailed and worse whether you believe they should be or not.

"The real problem is that women lack other and better choices.  When
those are available, the abortion rate will take care of itself." 

I don't believe that that is the real problem at least not on my planet. I know very few women who have regretted their decision to have an abortion or would have willingly carried to term had their financial circumstances been different.

"If you look at the comments on Cristina Page's article re the FAM/NFP
researchers, you will find a number of prochoicers who also defend the
method."

 

You mean the commenters who were all using the same set of inane talking points about how "empowering" it was of the woman was good at "communicating with her partner" and never addressing Christine's honest, well expressed and practical arguments? 

"And why do you assume I haven't done anything to promote access to ALL methods for poor women who rely on Title X? "

I don't recall expressing that assumption or, for that matter, expressing any interest in your activities at all. I was responding to your comments  in that thread. Specifically your rather strident defense of a non-contraceptive method which, under optimal conditions, has a  failure rate of 25%. You dismissed the failure rate

by saying, "As for effectiveness, when condoms, diaphragms, and pills are not practiced diligently and correctly, they don't work, either."

 a statement which, though factually correct, implies that the high failure rate for NFP is not the fault of the method but, rather, the women who become pregnant using the method. You're wrong.  The problem is the method. As a practical matter, NPF like abstinence-only-sex- education does not work or at least not if you're primarily interested in working to prevent unwanted pregnancies and, thus, abortions..

 

Submitted by colleen on February 17, 2009 - 10:34pm.
But I saw you promoting an ineffective form of contraception that will result in pregnancy in most women who use it.  And I was disappointed.  So far the hunt for a truly pro-prevention pro-lifer continues.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on February 17, 2009 - 1:34pm.

See below after Harry's questions--info on FAM/NFP and its effectiveness.

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 7:47pm.

opposing abortion personally vs advocating for it to be re-criminalized. Though many (if not most) pro-lifers would say they support both premises.

And if you support the re-criminilization of abortion, then you are asking that the government take the choice away from women, even if that idea sounds dislikeable to some otherwise-good pro-lifers. If you support a ban/excessive restriction on abortion, then the woman is then not allowed to make that choice for herself.

Is this clear enough? I'm being serious. I really want to be exact in my explanations, as many have guessed.

 

Submitted by Harry834 on February 17, 2009 - 6:04pm.

even if you hate the idea of forced motherhood as much as we do, the fact is supporting the re-criminilization of abortion creates just that horrible scenario.

Also, do you support other forms of contraception, besides NFP. And do you agree that NPF has a higher failure rate than say, the pill or condom? If not, why not? I honestly want to hear your data.

Submitted by Harry834 on February 17, 2009 - 6:07pm.

I don't know if Marysia has left the field in disgust by this point, but I can tell you that she absolutely does support other forms of contraception, including public funding for it: http://nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com/search/label/Contraception

Submitted by Jen R on February 17, 2009 - 7:45pm.

Thanks, JenR!

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 8:03pm.

Harry, these are fair questions.

Once again, i don't think criminalizing women for abortion accomplishes anything.  There is a collective responsibility to ensure that no woman and no unborn baby, or as few as possible, ever end up in a situation where abortion appears the only or the least bad choice.  And our very high abortion rate in the US speaks to how miserably we have failed this collective responsibility.

 

I absolutely support *all* forms of voluntary pregnancy prevention, whether the various permanent or reversible contraceptives, outercourse, same-sex relations, FAM/NFP, or abstinence.

 

No method of prevention works without diligent practice--same for FAM as anything else.  But the socalled "natural" methods, the more recently developed and scientifically based ones, can be just as effectively as other methods that more prochoicers approve of.

 

The Fertility Awareness Center is a nonreligious and (I think) prochoice feminist effort.  The FAQs address concerns about effectiveness:

http://www.fertaware.com/

 

Family Planning: A Global Handbook for Providers is the evidence-based manual used by UNFPA and the World Health Organization. Among many other methods, it includes chapters on FAM and one on another "natural" method, the Lactational Amenorrhea Method (based on breastfeeding practices & as much as 98% effective):

 http://www.infoforhealth.org/globalhandbook/index.shtml

By the way, I encourage everyone to visit this site and help out in the global distribution of this manual.  A mere ten dollars will pay for one copy of the manual, in the appropriate language, to be given to a health provider in the Two Thirds World.  That's a ten dollar bill with a big impact.

 

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 8:01pm.

Combining two (or three!) methods of prevention--any of the methods-- diligently can boost their effectiveness. 

http://www.nonviolentchoice.info/preventionallways.html#cfp

 

FAM is no exception.  It can be combined with barrier methods during the fertile period or throughout the cycle.  Some couples to be absolutely careful practice outercourse only during the fertile period, and barrier methods (if anything else) during the remainder of the cycle.

 

 

Nonviolent Choice Directory, http://www.nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com

Submitted by Marysia on February 17, 2009 - 8:17pm.