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Good Girls and Hot Messes: Abortion Doesn't Hurt Women

Amanda Marcotte's picture

Some time ago, probably while cooking up the oxymoron "compassionate conservatism" in the propaganda dungeons of the right, it occurred to anti-choice forces that their image was suffering from the (correct) perception that they want to curtail women's rights because they don't have very warm feelings for women.  Clearly, they needed to put some lipstick on that pig and convince the public that, all evidence to the contrary, they do give a damn about women.  It was a momentous task indeed.  After all, women themselves--with their paychecks, right to vote, and modern ideas about controlling their own lives--were the problem.  

The solution, as it has been throughout history, was to construct a mythological Good Girl to defend against all those Bad Girls, with their sex-having, paycheck-drawing ways.  The Good Girl is sweet, submissive, religious, maternal, and self-sacrificing.  She doesn't like sex and doesn't want to be in that scary world of work.  But she does love marriage and babies, and is willing to tolerate sex to get the marriage and babies.  Bad Girls like sex, and want to have it even if they can't get pregnant.  Bad Girls think about other things besides marriage and babies, even if they do want to get married and have a baby or two.   

The clever contribution anti-choicers made to this millennia-old Madonna/whore dichotomy was the theory that all women are, deep down inside, baby-loving, sex-reluctant, marriage-crazed Good Girls.  Bad Girls only exist because they've been broken by feminism and legal abortion.  Bad Girls are mentally ill, and just need to be forced into motherhood by losing access to abortion and contraception to turn them into Good Girls, who may not be happy, but are well -- in the sense of functioning properly.    

Because this is a silly theory, there's been a long-standing hope that science would come in and save the day, by proving once and for all that women who have rights and use them are broken, especially if they use their right to abortion.  Anti-choicers concocted a fake mental illness called "Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome," and hoped that the psychological establishment would one day validate it, and their beliefs. The idea was that Bad Girls who do the most Bad thing you can do -- get an abortion -- would be more likely to be mentally ill than other women, demonstrating that having rights is damaging to women. 

Well, anti-choice activists, who are well-stocked with science-wary fundamentalist Christians, will be telling themselves that they should have known those liberal college science types were never on their side, because the American Psychological Association has once again determined that abortion poses no risk to women's mental health.  The reality of the Madonna/whore dichotomy was not discussed in the report, but it was implicitly debunked.  It turns out that women are actually not stupid or crazy as a rule, but perfectly capable of making their own decisions.  Like men.  Like citizens. 

It was clear to me that if the APA had found anything for anti-choicers to cling to, they would have immediately moved on to creating a mental illness to describe women who use contraception.  Artificial Infertility Disorder, maybe?  Symptoms: Sleeping through the night, a bank account of an unseemly size for a woman, a stunning lack of shotgun weddings, an unfeminine enjoyment of her sex life, and a really unfeminine loss of stress in her sexual relationships with men.   

It's hard to celebrate this news, though, because the idea that women are, as a class, less competent than men and unable to make important decisions about child-bearing without threatening their especially fragile mental health has taken off in the mainstream discourse even as the APA finds it scientifically unsound.  Women-as-fragile-incompetents instead of as citizens has been enshrined in the Supreme Court decision Gonzales v Carhart.  

Even, distressingly, pro-choice politicians are beginning to feel they have to pay lip service to the idea that women are especially incompetent and that our rights have to be considered in that light. Linda Hirshman counted out the ways. 

    The Hyde Amendment pulled Medicaid financing for the poorest and most desperate women. In 1992, the Clinton campaign reframed abortion as an unpleasant last resort. Last term, the Supreme Court finally broke, affirming the criminalization of certain late-term abortions. And Democratic candidate Barack Obama, in The Audacity of Hope, compared women's regrets over their past abortions to white people's regrets about past bigotry. This Clintonian compromise--that abortion was a necessary moral evil--had become the most progressives could hope for. 

Every time a pro-choicer tries to appeal to the "mushy middle" with these tactics, they reaffirm the idea that there are Good Girls who have lots of children and not lots of sex, and Bad Girls who are just Good Girls who've lost their way.  It might win votes--no one could accuse Barack Obama at this point of having a poor political compass--but it ultimately comes at the cost of undercutting abortion rights.  Because if abortion is always wrong, always the bad choice, always a regretful action--that is, if there are so many broken Bad Girls out there--then it becomes impossible to really defend women's rights. 

How?  Well, Good Girls are fundamentally defined as those women who realize that they are powerless to run their own lives and have to submit to men and to their traditional, submissive roles in order to hold their fragile female selves together.  Bad Girls are hot messes, who didn't submit and therefore are falling apart.  What they have in common is that they, being women, can't make their own decisions, and only do well when controlled by others.   

In other words, every time you wax poetic about women's regret, or frame abortion as the terrible last resort of the terminally incompetent, then you're reaffirming the belief that women can't handle freedom, and therefore shouldn't have it.  And the first freedoms to go will be reproductive freedoms.   

. . . . .
83 comments
But killing is wrong so what you're, in effect, saying is that we should be allowed to kill because that is our Freedom! Are you hearing what you are saying? How does taking someone else's freedom equate to obtaining your own freedom? That has never worked in history. In fact, this usually has the opposite effect and you are likely to give yourself a bad name. A better way to help women is to educate them on the consequences of having intercourse. Think of the negative ripple effect that killing has had and does have on our entire society - especially women.
Submitted by Truth Returns on August 21, 2008 - 10:28am.
Still an ineffective persuasion technique.  But I'm sure it felt good for you.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on August 21, 2008 - 12:34pm.
women are murderers and that they should be punished equivalently, correct?
Submitted by Harry834 on August 21, 2008 - 12:45pm.

Do you?

Submitted by Harry834 on August 21, 2008 - 12:49pm.

 A better way to help women is to educate them on the consequences of having intercourse

 Oh, do you mean consequences  like these:

The orgasm itself begins with strong muscle contractions. These contractions can be finished within four seconds or last up to about 15 seconds. They tend to occur at intervals of 0.8 seconds. Also, the inner two-thirds of the vagina usually open up even more, while the uterus contracts.

During orgasm, skin flushing generally reaches its maximum. Muscles may keep contracting, while blood pressure, heart rate and respiratory rate continue to rise. Some women make sounds reflecting the pleasure they are experiencing

Submitted by Mellankelly1 on August 21, 2008 - 5:49pm.
Yes Mellankelly1, I think women ought to be educated about those consquences of intercourse. Other "consequences" are the ability to compare the quality of those orgasms when they are delivered by different lovers. Women should learn that some lovers -- especially those that are very scared by women who prefer to have sex for pleasure and not always for procreation -- tend to not be very good at creating the orgasmic response in women and, drawing from their limitedexperiences and ineptitude, have developed a view that women either do not enjoy sex or should not enjoy the sexual act unless it is intended for making babies.
Submitted by Othello Cat on September 8, 2008 - 5:15am.
I'd rather be a Hot Mess than a Good Girl any day, but then I don't consider it a crime to think independently.
Submitted by ldavid56 on August 21, 2008 - 12:49pm.
what anyone is saying but those who puke up the right wing talking points. >Think of the negative ripple effect that killing has had and does have on our entire society - especially women. SO you're anti-war then? Why aren't you talking about the negative effects that killing over a million Iraqis in an illegal war is having on "society"? Why not talk about how lack of adequate health care is having an effect on the soldiers coming back from Iraq with mental illnesses and disabilities. Oh wait I forget- your kind only likes the fetus but as soon as they're born they're on their own. You're so worked up about ONE area that you've tunnel visioned everything else that happens in society. You're nothing but a concern troll.
Submitted by Lefse Queen on August 21, 2008 - 1:03pm.
OMG do you honestly think that ALL people who oppose abortion care squat for post-birth life? Do you know any pro-lifers "in real life," or do you live deep within a bubble of people who think the same as you do? /rant. What's a concern troll?
Submitted by pro-life atheist on August 21, 2008 - 4:03pm.
I can't speak for everyone, but you've made it clear that your main concern is that women are having sex with men that are not you, and not getting punished for it.  I'm sure some nimrods out there believe the "life" story, but you aren't one of them.  Why are you appealing to a group you don't belong to?  Since you've already established that what makes you angry is women having sex without punishment, why hide behind the skirts of people that might be morally superior to you, if a little slow?
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on August 21, 2008 - 7:34pm.
You're not proving a point by stereotyping and mislabeling those who disagree with you. In as much, if you can prove that my main concern is that "women are having sex with men that are not [me] and not getting punished for it," then I'll have to believe you (but you can't because its not true). Until then, you're offering no more intelligence to this debate than I am with my snarky comments. Teehee. :) PS what's up with that final line? I can't seem to wrap my morally inferior mind around it.
Submitted by pro-life atheist on August 22, 2008 - 2:07am.
The core issue you seem to be attempting to address is that our society has a serious DISREGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE in all of its stages. You accuse me of being focused only on the fetus. Would you rather me argue the point from euthanasia to abortion? It's all the same argument. War falls in between abortion and euthanasia so should we start there? I thought the beginning was a good place - FROM CRADLE TO GRAVE. Just because something IS doesn't mean that it SHOULD be that way. I hear a lot of your arguments, and they are defeatist arguments. You've already given up on the Truth so you stand for nothing. Like a scarecrow. You're there but there is no substance. Most of you, save HARRY so far, only focus on the symptoms of the disease instead of the disease itself. Once society begins to respect the DIGNITY OF HUMAN LIFE in all of its stages, we can begin... Search for the Truth ardently - you will find it if you are truly open. Many of you have been hurt, and I can sense this but you are responsible now to seek on your own - no excuses.
Submitted by Truth Returns on August 21, 2008 - 5:19pm.
You have no respect for the HUMAN LIFE OF WOMEN so why would we listen to you?
Submitted by Clara on August 23, 2008 - 6:44pm.
You are right. America has no regard for human life at all. Two wars and televised glorification of bombing campaigns that destroy human life for money and oil. Tens of thousands of nuclear warheads on our soil. Corporate polluters allowed to turn the sky green at night and poison our kids with childhood asthma. No basic healthcare that all humans need to have a decent life. No regard for the planet without which, we would not even have human life to begin with. Or any life for that matter. We evolved late in the game and deem ourselves "precious" while the ecosystem that supports us all is denigrated by overconsumption, pollution and overpopulation. Yet, here you are telling us all that more babies are the answer when it's clear we already don't pay for the ones that actually do need clean air to breathe and enough food to eat. Your tired, old, backward looking messages on these boards only prove that we have not educated our people to the extent that we should be, nor have we appointed the appropriate psychiatric help to those such as yourself who need to be de-programmed from harmful organized superstition that has no relevance here in the real world.
Submitted by Nosila on August 27, 2008 - 1:24pm.
wow. really...seriously...*stands up and applauds* no sarcasm here, this is genuine. that is a very VERY good argument.
Submitted by Anonymous L. on November 6, 2008 - 3:15pm.

Amanda,

don't assume that everyone who regards abortion as lifetaking/violence does so because they are afflicted with the Madonna/whore complex and are devotees of the double standard.

I for once have publicly for decades denounced this division of women into "bad" and "good"--among many, many other inhumane effects, it *causes* abortion.  still...

because many women don't feel entitled to sexual pleasure, and so many men are just thinking about their own wants...women end up not exploring sexual practices which have no risk of pregnancy, and/or not contracepting...and so end up with unwanted pregnancies, which they then feel they must abort because they fear being shamed for the very public evidence of their sexuality that a continued pregnancy would become.  or someone else doesn't want to be "contaminated" with the "shame" and pressures the women into having an abortion.

i get weary just thinking about all the women i know that this kind of sh*t has happened to....

anyone who is serious about opposing abortion and alleviating its root causes of abortion has to be serious about *dismantling* this whole setup, which does persist in the US and many other places.  and i for one am *damned* serious  about that. i'm not the only one, either....

Submitted by Marysia on August 21, 2008 - 3:33pm.
Of people who do get distracted by fetal life, and forget that this is, and always has been about hating sex.  But I'm not interested in what the slow-witted followers believe.  The leadership is focused like a laser on women's rights, and the whole "fetal life" lie is mainly there to attract the guillible and silence the qualms of those who realize that murder sentences for women who have sex might be a tad severe.
Submitted by Amanda Marcotte, RH Reality Check on August 21, 2008 - 7:36pm.

Speaking as one human being at whom they are targeted...your allegations are really nonsequiturs....I for one am *no one's* "slow-witted follower" who is stupidly "distracted by fetal life" into forgetting that what I am really and truly about is punishing women for sex!!  Same with the many other folks I know whose opposition to abortion stems from an overall ethics and politics of genuine, well thought out respect for all lives.

 And why do you leap to the conclusion that we do not vigorously challenge those who do forget about life after birth, especially the sacred lives and rights of women?!!  We're at it all the time, thank you very much...no matter who does or does not want to see or hear it.

I could amass and present to you considerable evidence to susbstantiate these claims. 

But I suspect, unfortunately, that you would find none of it to be admissible...analogous to the way that some avowedly progressive whitefolks will not admit any evidence that they have any biases, conscious or unconscious, towards people of color...

I do not understand why you cling so assiduously to these adhominem attacks to the degree that you just totally overrride the real motives, intentions, and actions of human beings who, just like you and other prochoicers are trying to make and do their best with a very complex issue that has no easy or obvious or simplistic answers.

 Just as there are intelligent, thoughtful, and compassionate arguments for prolife, there are for prochoice.  One of the mysteries to me about the abortion debate/discourse in the US is that there is so much mutual slinging about of demonizing stereotypes...when in fact each "side" has its own valid insights and we could all build a much better society if we could learn to listen to the unique insights and contributions that everyone has to make.  

 So, Amanda, what have you got to lose from acknowledging the possibility that maybe not everyone who disagrees with you on this particular issue is how you assiduously portray them to be?

Submitted by Marysia on August 22, 2008 - 1:58pm.
If you want to stop hearing the stereotypes, stop living them. You claim you're one pro-life person who's not a hypocrite and not just following the herd or falling for sentimental nonsense, act like it. There are currently NO pro-life groups that support the prevention of abortion by preventing unwanted pregnancy. No pro-life groups support contraception or comprehensive sex-education. Want to stop being called a hypocrite? STOP GROUPING YOURSELF WITH THEM.
Submitted by Sayna on August 23, 2008 - 8:40pm.

Sayna,

there are plenty of people like me who are prolife, pro contraception, and pro comprehensive sex education, not to mention pro everything that would help both the women and babies involved in unintended pregnancies actually find other ways than abortion. 

do you think we blindly follow and join the organized antiabortion movement as such?  no, we tend to back what we consider good and wise on both "sides" of the debate.

 

you can't brush all people who identify as prolife with the same brush--just like people who identify as prochoice. tarring every single prolifer as a "hypocrite" undercuts any possibility for identifying and acting on common ground issues.

  i have been actively working for decades for all of the above measures, and how that's being a hypocrite, i don't know....

Submitted by Marysia on August 25, 2008 - 11:29am.
If there are a lot of pro-life people like you who support sex ed. and contraception, why aren't all of you talking to the leaders of all pro-life organizations and telling them to change their stance? Why am I not seeing pro-lifers actively campaign for these abortion-reducing measures?
Submitted by Sayna on August 27, 2008 - 10:02pm.
....its called planned parenthood. you know, the places prolifers protest and bomb?? they have fully been, ever since the program was instated, been for preventing pregnancies and comprehensive sex education.
Submitted by Anonymous L. on November 6, 2008 - 3:21pm.

..I can't speak for the above poster in particular, he or she will have to speak for him or herself.

but....please don't assume that because someone feels abortion is unjust lifetaking, they don't also vigorously oppose other forms of lifetaking, and even more try to supplant them with nonviolent alternatives.

 

I along with a bunch of folks I know opposed the War even before it began as well as the inhumane denial of veterans benefits and health care that we saw coming...along with the death penalty, and just about anything else you could name....

So please don't leap to conclusions about people who oppose abortion.  Many of us believe that concern for any one group of people, whether born or unborn, requires equal and parallel concern for every other group of humans.  Concern expressed in active responsibility taking.  For example, if one opposes abortion, one must fight (nonviolently) for complete contraceptive access and universal maternal child and all other health care (to mention just a few of the measures one must work for).

 

Submitted by Marysia on August 21, 2008 - 3:44pm.
Too bad there is not one single anti-choice organisation that shares your beliefs. But there are plenty of pro-choice organisations that do. Would you support a presidential candidate who shares all those same beliefs except about abortion? Or will you let your unrealisitc bias cloud your mind from making the best possible choice for the MOST peoples benefit?
Submitted by Clara on August 23, 2008 - 6:56pm.

Clara,

I actually support prochoice organizations in the nonabortion/abortion-reducing work that they do, just as I support the prolife efforts that really do offer substantive help to women during pregnancy and beyond.  And I wish I wasn't too sick and poor to start an organization for prolifers like me--there are enough of us to support such a group.  I did help to start Nonviolent Choice Directory, www.nonviolentchoice.info, which brings together abortion-reducing resources from both "sides" and neither.

 

I vote like a lot of folks I know, when it comes to abortion: the critical question is not whether the candidate will make it legal or illegal, but what will they do (whether by intent or in effect) that will make abortion *unnecessary.*  And then of course, there are other life and death issues to consider, such as the environment, the war, poverty, violence against women.

So much for "unrealistic, mindclouding" bias that hijacks the entire public good?

 

Submitted by Marysia on August 25, 2008 - 11:38am.
You are exactly the kind of person I can respect. By unrealistic and mind clouding i mean of course the fact that EVERYTHING DIES. Wanting to prevent death is detrimental to life. Things must die so others can live. The food you eat, yes, even if you eat vegetables were once alive but they died so you could eat and continue living. Theres nothing wrong with respect for life but you have to consider the reality that is: everything dies.
Submitted by Clara on August 25, 2008 - 1:12pm.

Well, I am glad that *somebody* around here has some bit of positive feeling in my direction (: 

I am well aware of the fact that everyone and everything dies.  I have lived since childhood with more than one potentially lifethreatening disability.  Young people in my neighborhood are killed because of gang violence continually.  Among other inescapable exposures to death.

However, as far as I see it, there is an enormous difference between acknowledging death as a reality and engaing in or advocating some form of generally preventable lifetaking as necessary (let alone as a human right). 

As a vegetarian who grows a lot of her own produce, I am well aware that eating plants takes their lives.   I feel sadness and gratitude towards the plants. But I don't think the need to eat plants for survival translates into a right to eat animal flesh, especially in a society and a climate where other food possibilities are readily available even, sometimes, to the poor.  It means I have a responsibility to limit the harm  my eating does to other sentient beings.  Meat eating is a big way to do that along with some other practices I try to follow.

 

To me, the reality of death inspires wonder and reverence for the preciousness of every life, and the desire to offer positive alternatives to the preventable harms against humans (born and unborn) and other living beings that people engage in.  I'm not the only one who seest abortion in such a context, either!

Submitted by Marysia on August 25, 2008 - 7:33pm.
Very well put, Clara. A lot of good-hearted people get manipulated into voting Republican by their antiabortion religious leaders. That is how we got involved in a national discussion about us, good, God-fearing Americans, torturing people.
Submitted by MaryOGrady on August 27, 2008 - 9:09am.
"please don't assume that because someone feels abortion is unjust lifetaking, they don't also vigorously oppose other forms of lifetaking, and even more try to supplant them with nonviolent alternatives." The fact of the matter is that those who most ardently support the invasion and occupation of Iraq and the torture of it's citizens are those people on the religious right who also identify as 'pro-life'. Those on the so called 'pro-life' movement who likewise oppose torture and the dangerous foreign policies of the right are few and far between, a tiny, tiny minority who do nothing whatsoever to change any of the priorities of the pro-non breathing life movement. I'm surprised your head hasn't exploded from cognitive dissonance but, still, the basic questions in this discussion is, "do you wish to recriminalize abortion?"
Submitted by colleen on September 8, 2008 - 10:59am.
Greetings, It is not at variance for a woman to have a huge bank account, the greatest job in the whole world, and also have children. Nor have I heard of any social conservative of intellectual and political consequence (and I personally know plenty of them) that favors suppressing a women’s transcendence. Women are not salves. As far as the sexual revolution goes, women are viewed by men as being incapable of satisfying their desires because of the deadening of the male libido in relation to what real women look like because of all the alternatives for men in the sex industry. Moreover, men treat women as a mere means to a sexual end because of the liberation that contraception and abortion affords men. The suburban home is not a concentration camp, nor are men rapists. Children are not intolerable burdens that are to be viewed as parasites to choose to remove just because you are a big girl and can choose to do so. The choice that social conservatives seek to revoke has not a thing to do with your current legal rights as they correspond to your enlightened thinking about how women will be presumably treated if they do not have that choice. Men are not unreliable, and you have the ability to choose a reliable one who will let you respect life, including yours. Contraception and abortion may allow you to choose, but they also let men rampantly consume without consequence. Moreover, they perpetuate the idea of the unreliable man by letting him treat you as you claim social conservatives call those of you who enjoy sex. There is nothing wrong with enjoying sex, but contraption and abortion paradoxically allow men to disregard women’s emotional and physical equilibrium and think just of theirs. How lonely of a choice to have for women to concurrently and to preeminently just think of theirs. Anyway, the choice we seek to suppress, revoke, and otherwise repeal is the choice that you have to end what would be there if you could not choose. That being said, enjoy sex, be president, and have a separate bank account or choose a man that you can trust because you can and are strong enough to do so. You have the power. Timothy+
Submitted by Timothy on August 21, 2008 - 5:27pm.
The choice that social conservatives seek to revoke has not a thing to do with your current legal rights as they correspond to your enlightened thinking about how women will be presumably treated if they do not have that choice. Men are not unreliable, and you have the ability to choose a reliable one who will let you respect life, including yours.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Are you trying to say that it's okay to take away the option of abortion because women have a chance of finding a male who will take care of them and their kids? Abortion isn't just about not becoming a parent. The social dependency (child depending on parent) isn't the issue, because that can be resolved through adoption. The problem is the physical dependency a fetus has on the woman's body. If you outlaw abortion, you are forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. That's the problem. Until women can transfer their pregnancy to a man, these "reliable men" do not solve this problem.
Contraception and abortion may allow you to choose, but they also let men rampantly consume without consequence.
Are you implying that women who use contraception are just passively letting men "consume" them? So much for dismantling that notion that you have a Madonna/whore complex going on!
Moreover, they perpetuate the idea of the unreliable man by letting him treat you as you claim social conservatives call those of you who enjoy sex. There is nothing wrong with enjoying sex, but contraption and abortion paradoxically allow men to disregard women’s emotional and physical equilibrium and think just of theirs. How lonely of a choice to have for women to concurrently and to preeminently just think of theirs.
Again, you're not making any sense. In an egalitarian relationship, both partners pitch in to provide the contraceptives (and, if that fails, the abortion). You say that men are reliable, but here you are acting like the ones who sleep with women who use contraception and/or have abortions treat them like, well, "what-social-conservatives-sometimes-call-women-who-like-sex"! (Again, Madonna/whore dichotomy!) On one side of your mouth, you're saying that men are reliable and decent, but on the other you're saying that they just use women for sex. And you're acting like no woman could POSSIBLY enjoy sex and not want to be pregnant! Like women don't use birth control because THEY like sex! As another poster has already said, you're still putting the responsibility on women.
Perhaps contraception and abortion, by taking away pregnancy as a punishment/deterrent from sex do help men to escape the punishme-- I mean,"responsibility" that comes with sex, but it's not as if men didn't just use women for sex and then abandon them before contraception and abortion were invented. If anything, the women who do have the misfortune of sleeping with a man who just uses them have a way out. If it weren't for contraception and abortion, these women would be forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. And most likely, they would be doing it alone. I don't want to go back to those days.
Submitted by Sayna on August 23, 2008 - 9:12pm.
Just out of curiousity, how many of you flat out oppose abortion, no matter what the circumstances? If you oppose abortion under all circumstances, I have another question...have you ever been raped? Or molested? Have you ever known someone who became pregnant before they were ready to have/care for a child? Because I personally don't particularly like the idea of having an abortion, but I'm still pro-choice. Because I have been a victim of rape and molestation, and I can tell you right now that if I had become pregnant from that experience, I would not have had the mental stability to carry that child for 9 months. Most victims of rape wouldn't be able to handle it. In fact, I would guess that it would increase the chance of suicide for a rape victim if they had to carry the resulting child for 9 months. Then two lives would be taken. As for having a child at a young age, do you really want some incompetent, selfish 16 year old raising a child? And do you really want people giving birth to children they don't want, and may very well despise??? Think twice before you try to take away every woman's reproductive rights just because you're ignorant/brainwashed/protected enough to think that every impregnation will result in a wanted, loved child.
Submitted by Anonymous on August 21, 2008 - 10:08pm.
1 - I do. 2 - No (but a family member was molested - she's still pro-life). Several friends have been raped, the only one to become pregnant did not abort. 3 - Have you ever met a 16 year old who got pregnant? I have met a few around that age, and all appeared more mature and capable than the current crop of Cold War aficianados in the White House. 3 - I thought twice, and now I'm anti-abortion/pro-life/anti-choice 4 - If reproductive rights are a diverse range of issues, then taking one away (abortion) won't take away them all. 5 - Thanks for the compliments :) Its rare for an atheist to be called ignorant, brainwashed, or protected....usually its the other way around ;) -------- By the way, I dont' think Amanda is gonna like that you referred to a sexually aware and active 16 year old female as "incompetent" and "selfish"....do you hate sex or something?
Submitted by pro-life atheist on August 22, 2008 - 2:17am.

Anonymous--first of all, may I please ask that you not refer to people who disagree with you on this issue as "antichoice"?  Most of us aren't any more "antichoice" than you and other prochoicers are "antilife."

Yes, I have been raped and molested.  It happens to prolife just as much to prochoice--to one in three female human beings globally.  I'm glad I never conceived from that, but if I had, I can only hope that I would have the courage and the ability to separate out my feelings of hatred towards the perpetrator and not let them sabotage the child's need for life and wellbeing.  And that the child and I would have received the full support necessary for *both of us* to live and thrive despite the cricumstances that brought us together, whether I raised the child myself or someone else did. 

My family is interracial (black/white), and black history is full of courageous women who somehow managed to love and raise the children they conceived from white rapists, or if they could not, to find another family who would love and welcome that child.

Yes, I have known many, many women with unintended/crisis pregnancies.  I was one myself.  It was not easy to bear and raise my daughter, but I did it.  Because of this experience, I became a professional maternal child welfare worker, until disability forced me to retire young, to help women and children find other and better options.  And now I am the grandmother of a disabled child who was conceived unintentionally.  I am trying to give all the support I can here, while advocating simultaneously for *all* human beings involved in difficult rpegnancies and beyond.  I don't have any money or much energy, but I am trying the best I can.

One reason I balk at the epithet "antichoice" is that I realize full well that if one defines abortion as violent lifetaking and therefore to be ruled out in all/most/almost all circumstances, then one must comprehensively advocate, at every level from one's personal life to the global level, for positive options.  That means the full range of prevention options--most certainly including the prevention (and prompt, effective treatment) of any form of sexual violation to any human being.  And it means the full range of social supports for girls and women who experience unintended/crisis pregnancies anyway to make the decisions they would prefer regarding parenting, adoption, or some other care arrangement like guardianship.

Whatever the law does or doesn't say about abortion, pregnancy prevention and all manner of help for women and girls in crisis pregnancies and ever after birth are vitally necessary human rights--in their own right and for their value in reducing/eliminating abortion.  There are no easy or simple answers.  please don't assume that just because someone is prolife, they aren't aware of all these difficulties and complexities, or that they don't want as much as you to find humane, compassionate solutions to these problems.

Submitted by Marysia on August 23, 2008 - 5:21pm.
I find it amusing but also sad that everyone here has to resort to name-calling and ridiculous stereotypes in order to get their point across. What ever happened to having a civilized conversation? Anyway, I thought this might be a good website for anyone to check out--I think it gives a fresh take on women's rights relating to abortion, etc. http://www.feministsforlife.org/
Submitted by Anonymous on August 22, 2008 - 3:50pm.
Feminists for life are. not. feminist. Get that through your head right now. Denying women the right to make their own decisions based on stereotypes about women and the idea that you know more about what they want than they do is insulting to women. It treats them like they are idiots. They use the word "feminist" in an effort to promote oppression and make it look empowering. It's like how the Lifetime, Oxygen and We networks claim to be geared toward what women want, but the shows are mostly about weddings and the commercials are almost exclusively about cleaning products. Only this time, it's not just misguided marketing. It actively seeks to curtail women's rights.
Submitted by Sayna on August 23, 2008 - 8:48pm.
Have you looked at their website?
Submitted by pro woman pro life on August 24, 2008 - 8:04am.
Have you looked at their website or even comprehended the stupidity surrounding their stance?
Submitted by Clara on August 24, 2008 - 2:41pm.
Yes I have, and I think they're true feminists, respecting women to the utmost, and their children.
Submitted by pro woman pro life on August 24, 2008 - 2:58pm.

I almost cannot believe the level of hypocrisy that I see from Feminists for Life.


How on Earth can anyone say that they respect women and claim that women are incapable of making decisions for themselves? To say that you know women better than they know themselves, to say that you, a stranger, are more qualified to make a woman's most private medical and moral decisions is the epitome of insulting. Feminism is about freedom, and freedom means choice. It means having control over your life and making your own decisions based on your personal beliefs and accurate information.


Plenty of anti-feminist groups try to co-opt the language of equality and words associated with the women's rights movement in order to promote and agenda that is anything but feminist. Plenty of women make successful careers out of convincing women that they are incapable, dependent, and incompetent. Plenty of groups insist that they are starting a brand-new revolution when in reality they are just reverting to archaic customs of the past. "Feminists" for Life is no different.

Submitted by Sayna on August 25, 2008 - 12:32am.
Here's a question for you - do you believe that full equality for lesbians is a major tenent of feminism? Would her dismissal of the "lavender menace" mean that Betty Freidan wasn't a feminist for a while? Or how about the inherent racism and classism that still is being purged from the ranks of modern day feminist circles? Feminism isn't just about freedom, and freedom isn't just about choice. The issue is too complex to be turned into a bumper sticker, and for you to so easily dismiss an entire group of women - many who have done more to further feminist goals than you ever will - is out of place. You do have one (small) thing right. Feminists for Life, in great detail, documents their connection with feminists and suffragists of the past, who were more often than not ardent opponents of abortion.
Submitted by pro-life atheist on August 25, 2008 - 12:10pm.
The feminists of the past [i]were[/i] heavily racist, homophobic and anti-abortion. They were limited by the ignorance of their time and of their limited worldview. They were often privledged, white, straight women who had no idea of what struggles women who were less wealthy, non-white, and L/B/T were going through. They were wrong, but they had an excuse.
Nowadays, we know better. Women of color and queer women have become more widely recognized in the feminist movement. They have shared their stories and we now understand that sexism, homophobia, racism and classism all work together to oppress people. We know much more in these modern times than those early feminists ever could. Therefore, if you call yourself a feminist but want to exclude non-white and non-heterosexual women, you are a hypocrite.
The same goes for pro-life "feminists". Many early feminists opposed abortion because they lived in times when even the best available abortion methods were extremely dangerous. They also lived in times when female sexuality was barely understood and reliable contraception was not available, so childbirth was basically mandatory. Times have changed now. For all you know, if these women were born in our time, they would be pro-choice.
How convenient it is that these women who started the feminist movement were as ignorant as you! And how convenient it is that they can't defend themselves, change their minds, or clarify what they meant because they're dead.
Submitted by Sayna on August 27, 2008 - 10:23pm.
Sanya you can't say its not relevant then go and make a similar point. Are you saying that the early suffragists aren't feminists? Are you saying that Betty Freidan was during her anti-gay years? Granted there were a lot of scummy ideas held by early feminists, but if that invalidates their pro-life views, wouldn't it also invalidate their support for women's equality?
If you read their statements that were made regarding abortion, more often than not the reason expressed had to do with the life of the prenatal child, not the danger of the procedure. We do know more now, including advances in science and technology that have given us more information about the life of the embryo/fetus. That understanding of prenatal life is what most pro-lifers base their opposition to abortion on, and had these foremothers known more about this, they most likely would have continued in their opposition to abortion. If they were pro-life at a time when abortion was more dangerous and contraception wasn't readily available, then logic follows that they would be just as pro-life now that it isn't as dangerous and contraception is more available.
You can go ahead an say that pro-life feminists aren't feminists, but it makes no difference. They'll continue to do what they're doing, and you'll continue complaining about it. Marysia's track record speaks volumes, and if you won't consider her a feminist, there are plenty of others out there who would. Under what basis are you charging me with ignorance on this issue? If someone really has an uninformed position, then I'm all for them being referred to as ignorant; but where do you get that with me? Do you seriously believe I'm flippant in my stance, or are you just throwing that word around because you think those who have different opinions are less intelligent than you? While we're at it, do you think I am a true atheist for holding an anti-abortion viewpoint?
Submitted by Anonymous on August 27, 2008 - 11:43pm.
Above comment at 12:43 AM was me
Submitted by pro-life atheist on August 27, 2008 - 11:43pm.
Are you saying that the early suffragists aren't feminists? Are you saying that Betty Freidan was during her anti-gay years? Granted there were a lot of scummy ideas held by early feminists, but if that invalidates their pro-life views, wouldn't it also invalidate their support for women's equality?
You've missed my point. I'm not saying that their ideas were wrong just because they're outdated, I'm saying that the homophobia, classism and racism present in some early feminists was due, like their opposition to legal abortion, to ignorance. They still had some great ideas about equality and I'm greatful that they acted on them. But they were not right about everything.
If you read their statements that were made regarding abortion, more often than not the reason expressed had to do with the life of the prenatal child, not the danger of the procedure. We do know more now, including advances in science and technology that have given us more information about the life of the embryo/fetus. That understanding of prenatal life is what most pro-lifers base their opposition to abortion on, and had these foremothers known more about this, they most likely would have continued in their opposition to abortion.
Fetal life isn't the only issue in the abortion debate. Really, it's not even the main issue. The question is when, if ever, does a fetus have a right to be born that overrides the woman's right to make decisions about her own body? In other words, when do the basic human rights of a fetus trump the basic human rights of the woman? If two living things in the same body could have equal control of that body, there would be no issue.
I don't think that anyone who believes that a fetus' right to be born overrides a woman's right to life, liberty, and bodily domain truly respects women as human beings. I don't see how anyone could who advocates legally forcing women to endure unwanted pregnancy and childbirth is respecting women's autonomy or working in their best interest.
Under what basis are you charging me with ignorance on this issue? If someone really has an uninformed position, then I'm all for them being referred to as ignorant; but where do you get that with me?
Frankly, yor inability to even comprehend the other side's argument or empathize with what it's like to experience pregnancy and childbirth--let alone be FORCED to experience them--comes off as ignorant.
While we're at it, do you think I am a true atheist for holding an anti-abortion viewpoint?
Irrelevant. There is no uniting set of beliefs between atheists other than a lack of belief in a deity or deities. Some of my fellow atheists seem to understand me and my beliefs, others either do not and/or are simply opposed to them. The long list of atheists contains some of my most loved and most hated people.
Submitted by Sayna on August 29, 2008 - 1:00am.
I do understand your position - for years I was pro-choice. I did extensive research, re-evaluated my position, and joined the short line of atheists who oppose abortion. That's hardly ignorance, and you only think that because you don't understand where I'm coming from or what my thought processes on this are. You do have a habit of jumping the gun on folks; or at least you did when I observed your posts in various pro-choice groups on MySpace. Should you truly understand the pro-life position, then you may see where Marysia, Jen R, and I am coming from and understand why we believe the ethical wrong of ending a perceived life trumps bodily integrity.
Submitted by pro-life atheist on August 29, 2008 - 2:15am.
Tell me: How does what you call "perceived life" trump the rights of a living, thinking, feeling human being's right to decide what happens to her body.
Calling it "perceived" life is confusing. A fetus is not just perceived life. It is life. It's alive, as were the sperm and egg that created it, as are the billions of animals we kill and eat, and as are tumors that we excise. I don't understand why a fetus' life is more important than a woman's life to you. I don't understand how you can justify saying that that life must be protected at any and all costs when no other non-sentient life is.
I'm also kind of curious... most lifers are motivated by religious and supernatural beliefs. Like, "God made HUMAN life sacred, we have dominion over the Earth", or "God made women to have children, they have to accept the place he made for them", or "the fetus has a soul", or sometimes even the blunt "unwanted pregnancy is a punishment for sex outside God's plan". ...As I've said, atheists have all kinds of different beliefs. But it's a little hard to see how one justifies opposing abortion to the point of making it illegal without religion. I'm not saying that religion is essential for being insensitive toward women's rights, but it sure does seem to help.
Submitted by Sayna on August 29, 2008 - 1:08pm.
"Feminism isn't just about freedom, and freedom isn't just about choice." The thing is that socially conservatives such as yourself do not define feminism. Folks like you or the poorly named 'Feminists for Life' are about the last people with any knowledge about what feminism is and is not. It's like talking to Rush Limbaugh or Newt Gingrich
Submitted by Anonymous on September 8, 2008 - 4:38pm.

Sayna,

I think it's entirely possible to be a feminist and prolife in the sense of opposing abortion.  It's been done throughout history and remains possible, if difficult (because abortion is such a polarized issue) now.

Having researched, edited, and wrote for the book ProLife Feminism (both editions, the 2nd one is definitely better)...

 

But it is a fair question, whether or not the organization Feminists for Life represents prolife feminism, and as comprehensively as a prolife feminist stance needs to be....

I first joined Feminists for Life in 1986, when their mission was much more comprehensive and was open to advocacy of contraception, sex education, and a complete social welfare system.  But I quit in recent years because they remain narrowly focused on marshalling local resources for pregnant and parenting students, and so much more is required of a prolife feminist stance.

 

Their work for college campus pregnancy and parenting resources is  good as far as it goes.  There is a need more However, I think prolife feminism requires doing, and doing, and doing a *lot* more to help alleviate the root causes of abortion....opposing abortion while supporting women's rights brings with it a giant range of responsibilities, none of which can be neglected....

Submitted by Marysia on August 25, 2008 - 1:22pm.
There is no way to oppose legal abortion and support women's rights.
You can personally oppose abortion, you can want to reduce the amount of abortions, and you can seek alternatives to abortion. But when you take your personal beliefs and attempt to make them law for everyone else, you cross the line.
By supporting the illegalization of abortion, you are hurting women. You cannot claim to respect them as equals and expect them to surrender their bodies, their futures, and their very lives to your whim.
Submitted by Sayna on August 27, 2008 - 10:33pm.