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Using "States' Rights" to Restrict Abortion

Wendy Norris, New Journalist Fellow on May 15, 2008 - 8:00am
Wendy Norris's picture

The first in a series of reports exploring the ramifications of the controversial Colorado state ballot measure.

"States rights" has been the battle cry of modern-day social conservatives over the last 50 years to oppose everything from racial desegregation and gay marriage to gun control. But no issue has raised culture warrior hackles more than abortion.

Less well-known than the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, the Supreme Court's 1989 ruling on Webster v. Reproductive Health Services set the stage for a series of state skirmishes on restricting abortion and influencing public opinion through constitutional amendments, efforts that continue to this day.

Webster is a Missouri state law that restricts the use of state funding, employees and facilities to provide abortions.

However, the real test lies in the language. The law added a strict Christian construct to the preamble of the Missouri constitution -- that life begins at conception and therefore unborn children have protectable rights.

Now 20 years after Webster became law, a similar initiative is being attempted in Colorado through a proposed ballot measure to amend the state constitution:

 

Be it Enacted by the People of the State of Colorado:

SECTION 1. Article II of the constitution of the state of Colorado is amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SECTION to read:

Section 31. Person defined. As used in sections 3, 6, and 25 of Article II of the state constitution, the terms "person" or "persons" shall include any human being from the moment of fertilization.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, only Missouri has successfully added religiously inspired conception language to its constitution in an attempt to negatively sway public opinion on abortion. Despite decades of trying, no other state has succeeded with this controversial approach. Alabama, Georgia, Maryland, Oregon, Tennessee and South Carolina attempted either legislatively or via citizen initiative to codify personhood for fertilized eggs but every effort was soundly defeated, reports Dionne Scott of the Center for Reproductive Rights.

To Anita Allen, a University of Pennsylvania professor in both law and philosophy, states run into trouble with these efforts when they attempt to apply the conception language.

"The Court has emphasized that Roe v. Wade implies no limitation on the authority of a state to make a value judgment favoring childbirth over abortion," says Allen. "The preamble can be read simply to express a value judgment. A state is free through a referendum, preamble or law to state that life begins at conception but they don't have the constitutional right to regulate abortion or any other practice."

Supporters of Colorado's proposed ballot measure argue on the Colorado for Equal Rights Web site that "the simplicity of the text of this initiative speaks for itself."

However, Allen, an expert on privacy laws and ethics, isn't convinced that the measure is not simply a ploy to avoid the much more difficult persuasion campaign against birth control, emergency contraception, in-vitro fertilization and, ultimately, abortion itself. That debate has largely been long lost in the court of public opinion. A November 2006 Ciruli Associates poll reported that 56 percent of Colorado voters are pro-choice, a figure on par with the rest of the nation.

Thus, it would appear Roe v. Wade isn't going anywhere soon.

"It's a strategy," says Allen, of the proposed amendment. "And certainly a moralist could say, 'I really want to believe that from the moment of conception life begins and that that life deserves some legal protection.'

"But there are huge numbers of fertilized eggs that don't ever implant and implanted eggs that spontaneously abort. Plus, it raises the whole question about eggs that are fertilized outside the human body."

It's those not-so-simple questions that has some longtime anti-abortion activist groups lending less-than-tepid support.

The Colorado Catholic Conference refuted statements by Colorado for Equal Rights that the state's three bishops endorsed the proposal, according to a February press account. Further, Jennifer Kraska, executive director of the conference, raised concerns about the ballot group's structure, finances and tactics in she wholly dismissed any possibility of support by the Catholic Church.

Also notably absent is Focus on the Family, the Colorado Springs-based multi-million dollar ministry and catalyst for much of the evangelical culture wars over the last three decades.

The prime backers of the ballot measure, namely American Right to Life Action, have a long and ugly history of calling out its putative allies. One spat last year resulted in National Right to Life yanking the charter of the state affiliate for attacking Rev. James Dobson in newspaper ads for not being anti-abortion enough. From the ashes of Colorado Right to Life rose the hard core American Right to Life Action, which is heavily engaged in petition-circulating efforts for the group Colorado for Equal Rights.

The splintering of what one would assume are allied groups over this ballot measure comes as no surprise to Clemson political science professor Laura Olson, an expert on religion and politics.

"Colorado is a real locus of religious right activism," states Olson. "There's lot of folks who are conservative evangelicals -- you would think that this is a core issue. If this initiative is having trouble getting support, I think it's a real commentary on how evangelicals are a lot more politically diverse than they're given credit for being. This is not the kind of tactic that a lot of people are going to sign on to, quite literally."

And that dissension among the ranks of conservative evangelical Christian and Catholic leadership leads to a whole host of questions -- namely, what if this thing does pass, then what?

Olson believes that the end point -- a total restriction on abortion -- isn't the real goal no matter how clever the political strategy may be to push for zygote civil rights.

"One of the things about the abortion issue more than any of the other culture war issues that's been so interesting is that both sides get so fired up," she says. "But I don't think either side wants things to change in any real perceptible way. It's a mobilizing tool."

And high-intensity fundraising and voter turnout is what fertilized-egg activists will be doing leading up to the November election.

But beyond the boots-on-the-ground tactics, Olson raises an interesting analogy in the national 2004 push to pass state Defense of Marriage Acts (DOMA) as a strategy to for getting re-election support for President Bush from anti-gay marriage, religiously motivated voters." It was the perfect get-out-the-vote strategy for conservative candidates/causes up and down the ticket by pairing an important federal race with a red-meat state ballot measure for the GOP faithful to gnaw on.

So in the context of the "fertilized egg as a person" amendment, if the Colorado Secretary of State approves the measure for the ballot this year, will those highly motivated "values voters" sit out the presidential election or will they if not enthusiastically, at least consistently, pull the lever for the GOP's presumptive nominee, Sen. John McCain, a candidate who has had a great deal of difficulty making inroads with the conservative religious right?

Which seemingly puts the spotlight squarely on Colorado this cycle -- a traditional political swing state with a boisterous evangelical activist movement countered by an equally raucous libertarianesque civil liberties streak. Couple those forces with what is likely to be a very close 2008 presidential election, in addition to several other highly partisan state races and ballot measures, that will have the hard-core politicos salivating in the voting booth.


. . . . .
103 comments

There is that pesky tenth amendment to deal with.

All powers not specifically granted to Congress, nor denied to the states, are reserved for the states and the people.

Submitted by Michael Ejercito on May 15, 2008 - 12:54pm.

I'm just wondering what the purpose of Webster was?  During the 20 years since Webster what (if anything) has been done in Missouri to protect the "rights" of the fertilised egg?  From what I understand, the purpose of the Colorado personhood amendment is to eventually have it land at the U.S. Supreme Court with the hope being that once "personhood" has been established the zygote/embryo/fetus will be protected by the 14th Amendment.  Do you know if anything similar was attempted in Missouri?  It just seems to me that there is no way a court could support the goal of this law, which is an attempt to outlaw abortion without also affecting many forms of birth control or In Vitro Fertilisation; not to mention what this law could mean for women who miscarry or have ectopic pregnancies.  What about women who drink or smoke during pregnancy?  What about those who have poor prenatal care?  This is just ludicrous.

Submitted by Mellankelly1 on May 15, 2008 - 2:31pm.

"One of the things about the abortion issue more than any of the other culture war issues that's been so interesting is that both sides get so fired up," she says. "But I don't think either side wants things to change in any real perceptible way.

I disagree. I think the anti-choice crowd would love to have abortion outlawed. They've even told me so. I, on the other hand, would like them to lose, big time and repeatedly, and for abortion to become legal and restriction-free in every state.

Submitted by The Watcher on May 15, 2008 - 7:06pm.

I've long wondered why these efforts are not countered by the establishment of religion clause. Beliefs about when life begins are founded in religious belief and efforts to enact laws on this belief, to me, seem to be establishing religion. Under states' rights, are states permitted to establish a singular religious belief to impose on all their citizens? Other efforts like this, school prayer for instance, have been defeated - so why not this one?

Submitted by JoshuasGrandma on May 21, 2008 - 10:39am.

When DOES life begin, then? Scientifically speaking, of course.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 22, 2008 - 4:50pm.

the real question is whether or not the government (and the people around you) should force women to be pregnant.

We pro-choicers say "no"

Also, is abortion really murder if the women is never charged with murder? If NO ONE is willing to give her jail time? Or mental institution time?

Submitted by Harry834 on May 22, 2008 - 5:06pm.

Isn't forcing someone to do something requiring them to engage in something to which they never consented nor brought upon themselves in the form of consequence or inclusion?

We force convicts to go to prison. We force children in the US and Canada to go to school. We force citizens to pay taxes on earnings.

Where women are jailed for getting abortions, it is murder? So it varies upon geographical location?

I know these sound like stupid comments, but I find them no stupider than the comments I'm addressing.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 23, 2008 - 11:44pm.

If a patient with written consent starts medical treatment yet changes their mind during the
course of it, and the doctor or law refuses to withdraw or stop treatment due to some
reason such as an interest in the clinical outcome - once
consent is revoked the continuation of treatment isn’t forced? If someone visits or moves to a higher
crime area, by taking this risk and venturing into the area - is a criminal act
against them not really forced, especially if it’s through the use of threats only (which is sometimes all it takes to successfully commit a crime)? Was the victim in this case really not
forced to give up their wallet?

Laws to compel a woman to remain pregnant through to giving birth, using the threat of penalties, were not put in place until the mid to late 1800s in the US, along with the state criminalization of birth control. Its very interesting how some people can be so flexible
with the word ‘force’ and not protest its use in other contexts where legal prohibitions are put in place, but when it comes to pregnancy
and abortion they want the usage to be strictly narrowed.

 

 

 

Submitted by Janine on May 25, 2008 - 9:25pm.

When something is a consequence of a specific action, how is it forced? Consequence is a predictable or unpredictable, but natural course of events.

Even in a higher crime area, crime against the individual is still crime. Crime against someone is never welcome. Crime, by its very nature (say a mugging), is a violation. To bundle that into the same compartment as pregnancy gives me alot of insight into pro-abortion mentality.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 27, 2008 - 9:04pm.

The examples I gave on overriding consent and putting oneself at risk were addressing this specific statement...

Isn't forcing someone to do something requiring them to engage in
something to which they never consented nor brought upon themselves in the form
of consequence or inclusion?

 

 

When something is a consequence of a specific action, how is it forced?

Going to jail is a consequence of committing a crime, yet you call it force.

 

 

Consequence is a predictable or unpredictable, but natural course of events.

Going to jail is a considered a consequence of crime (or if you prefer its 'forced') because it is defined as such by laws - not because nature puts criminals in jail. Government and law choose what is defined as crime, they also choose the
penalty, and these can vary by culture.

 

As to Harry834's comment on force - to force can mean to compel or oblige. Anti-abortion laws do compel a woman to continue a pregnancy up to birth, beyond the stage of pregnancy she finds herself in, by constraining her legal options to stop the actions of her body that continue the pregnancy. There is nothing natural about anti-abortion laws. Anti-abortion laws/prosecution are not any more so a 'natural course of events' regarding pregnancy or abortion. In addition, there are
natural abortifacients. It is very natural to defend ones
body from harm, and doing so is a possible consequence even after putting oneself at risk.

Submitted by Janine on May 27, 2008 - 11:33pm.

"Nature" does not create government law. People do.

Nature creates pregnancy in the woman...but this process does not magically create the laws against abortion. People create those laws, and are thus responsible for these creations.

Anti-abortion laws outlaw the termination of pregnancy. Therefore, anti-abortion laws require a woman to be pregnant whether or not she wants to.

So yes: anti-abortion laws force pregnacy on women.

These laws are made by people. All laws are made by people. Therefore, the target of our criticism, condemnation, - hopefully removal from office - will be the people who created these laws which force pregnancy.

Other point:

these forced pregnancy laws are justified because it is said that abortion is murder.

So why is NO ONE willing to give the woman jail time? If she wantst to plead insanity, she has to prove it in court.

Even so, not every alleged murderer will prove that they are insane. What do you do about these women, who are NOT sorry they had abortions:

http://www.imnotsorry.net/newstories16.htm

Any prosecutor who saw a website with murderers claiming no remorse would rush to use this website as evidence in trial. No prosecutor sits back and lets a alleged murderer claim insanity without demanding proof. Too many women are not sorry for their abortions for a prosecutor to take an insanity defense at face value. He will demand proof.

And there are always murderers who fail to deliver proof.

Even with insanity, a murderer will at least be put away somewhere - an institution or some place. Sometimes insane people can be jailed.

Remorse is not a get-out-of-jail free card. Never has been, unless other mitigating fcators are there. And it takes a lot.

It's very, very, very unlikely that ANY murderer can escape some jail time, or at least institution time.

What does this mean?:

It means that every woman who has ever regretted their abortion MUST be put on trial for murder, just like those with no regrets.

Let judge, jury, and lawyers decide whether their "remorse" is good enough to lessen their jail senence.

Why are women who regret their abortions hugged and coddled by pro-lifers, instead of handcuffed, and put on trial for murder???

Submitted by Harry834 on May 27, 2008 - 11:36pm.

"Nature creates pregnancy in the woman...but this process does not magically create the laws against abortion. People create those laws, and are thus responsible for these creations."

Nature creates the pregnancy; man presumes to override nature by ending the pregnancy. Then man needs to regulate non-natural event such as abortion with laws. Whether the law is to allow or disallow abortion, the law is man-made. The point is moot.

Let's be realistic instead of doomsday-ist! No country in the western world has in modern times put a woman in jail for having an abortion. Even in Portugal, Malta, Ireland, and Poland, where we've seen the strictest abortion laws. Hasn't happened. So let's drop the "jailtime" act...you and NARAL both.

There's a scare tactic pro-abortionists are guilty of.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 28, 2008 - 11:44am.

Whether the law is to allow or disallow abortion, the law is man-made.

 

Not a moot point, there were originally no laws regulating abortion either way in the US.

Submitted by Janine on May 28, 2008 - 12:59pm.

man presumes to override nature by ending the pregnancy. Then man needs
to regulate non-natural event such as abortion with laws.

There goes other non-natural events such as pre-natal and other medical care that override nature.

Submitted by Janine on May 28, 2008 - 12:41pm.

1.) "Nature" is overridden everytime we go to the doctor.

The point is: "nature" is neither moral nor immoral, it is amoral,
value-free. We use medicine to intervene in nature because WE have
values - specifically the value of a healthy life. But "nature" is not
necessarily concerned with our survival or our health. For every immune
response nature creates, it also creates a deadly disease. Let people
to to the jungle and have insects lay eggs under their skin
("Challenging Nature", by Lee Silver, p. 197-198, these people got
insects in their skin - even after taking all their shots!!!)
"Nature" is not even an actual person! So when I use the word "nature's
concerns", know that I'm being metaphorical. Only persons (and maybe
animals)can have concerns. "Nature" is neither.

That is why we intervene in nature - because WE have concerns and we
seek to carry them out. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, but
leaving "nature untouched" has NEVER been our ultimate goal. And thank
goodness for that. That's why medicine exists. Because brave people
challenged "nature" and "God".

 

2.) You actually missed - and made - my point on jailtime for women.
I never said jailtime was likely. In fact, I said that the main issue
was that NO ONE wanted to put women in jail. THAT's the issue, and the
contradiction.

Because how can abortion be murder - in the certain, black-and-white
sense of the word - when NO ONE, prolifers included, want to put women
in prison for abortion (murder).

Any one who commits murder, and wants to escape jail, MUST prove
their case in court. And even then, they most likely won't escape jail.
Maybe a reduction in jail time. Maybe mental institution time. But
always some required place of confinement.

3.) If a woman wants to terminate her pregnancy, and the law forbids
it, then the law IS requiring her to be pregnant whether or not she
wants to be.

"Forced pregnancy" is a perfectly accurate term for what the law
does. It just doesn't sound good when advocating for these laws.

****If you want to terminate, but the law forbids it, then the law is requiring you to be pregnant. This is forced pregnancy.

You try to justify it by saying its murder...but you never treat the
woman as murderers because they NEVER get jail time, and NO ONE wants
to give it.

I'd love ot see gun murderers, knife murderers, stranglers, etc, get that kind of get-ot-of jail free guarentee.

Laws which force pregnancy, because "abortion is murder"...but no one wants to imprison the murderous women.

A tortured position...for a torturing law

 

Submitted by Harry834 on May 28, 2008 - 2:52pm.

I sarcastically call it "forced" when a convict is sent to jail for his crime. As it is EVIDENT that using the word "force" is a stretch...just as using it in the context of sending children to school is a stretch...just as requiring a woman to carry the child she was fully involved in conceiving is only "forcing" in the most stretched form of the word.

I'm forced to wear clothes in public. I'm forced to eat. I'm forced to pay for items I'd like to own.

My greater concern here is not about the law and whether or not it should change...but that in so changing, you could possibly bulk a woman getting pregnant together with a woman getting mugged. It's profane to parallel the two! And it says alot about how misconstrued your view of the phrase "right to choose" has become.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 28, 2008 - 11:35am.

Again, my two examples of high crime risk and medical treatment were addressing
this specific statement of yours.

"Isn't forcing someone to do something requiring them to engage in
something to which they never consented nor brought upon themselves in the form
of consequence or inclusion?"
If
I need to remind you, you took on Harry834's use of the word force with
the above stated wording. I replied to this statement
with examples - the crime one and also the written consent for medical
treatment example. Is it really so profane to use these two as
negating examples (instead of parallel with anything you said in
your post) to your statement about force? I then went
on to explain the history of abortion and birth control laws.

 

Again force can mean compel, even by law. I am forced by law to educate my children, at least this is the case in my state.

 

Unless one is an IVF doctor that specifically creates a fertilized egg and implants it, anyone else is just
taking a risk. A man's penis does not implant a sperm into an egg, nor does it implant it in the uterine wall - the conception
and implantation that might occur later are not a part of the actual sex act itself. Pregnancies do not occur following the majority of sex, the vast majority of
sperm die, nearly 1/2 of all conceptions don't even implant fully. You
choose to blame the woman for taking a risk, I do not assume blame
worthly of legal restrictions on medical care choices anymore than other risk taking.

Submitted by Janine on May 28, 2008 - 2:02pm.

You're right. No one should assume they can get pregnant through the act of sex. That would not be a rational analysis.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 29, 2008 - 11:24am.

You're right. No one should assume they can get pregnant through the act of sex. That would not be a rational analysis.

I never said that, instead I do say it is a risk and address risk taking. Re-read my comments above.

 

As said by other commenters on this site, 'Reading comprehension is fundamental'.

Submitted by Janine on May 29, 2008 - 3:22pm.

"Forced" means "being required to do something whether or not you want to; having no choice in the matter".

If you can choose whether or not to do something, you are not forced to do it.

When murderers are sentenced to jail, are they allowed to say "no" and walk out?

No

We force them to go. And this force is justified.


The question
is whether the forcing of women to be pregnant is also justified.

You say it is because "abortion is murder". I say you can't follow through with this belief - because you won't give these murderous women jailtime.

 

Submitted by Harry834 on May 28, 2008 - 3:03pm.

"The question is whether the forcing of women to be pregnant is also justified. You say it is because 'abortion is murder'."

No, you say that I say abortion is murder. All I'm saying is that our society can offer a woman experiencing an unexpected pregnancy SO MUCH BETTER!

You'll notice I never directly argued for the criminalization of abortion, either. I do, however, believe that many pro-abortion mentalities are skewered beyond reason and belief.

That being said, it's darned difficult to have a dialog.

Submitted by Anonymous on May 28, 2008 - 5:43pm.

if you keep it up with the inflammatory terms like "pro abortion".

Submitted by ruthless on May 28, 2008 - 6:58pm.

Pro-abortion simply means you advocate for abortion.

Anti-abortion means you are against abortion.

Pro-choice is a misuse of the word choice. It pretends that if one is opposed to abortion, that person is opposed to choice in a broad-sense. The proof is that the term "anti-choice" is all too commonly used, and it is a narrow view, full of illegitimate assumptions.

Funny how I have been able to dialog with you even while being called 'anti-choice' when, meanwhile, it is a more incorrect term than 'pro-abortion.'

I promise not to call you 'anti-life', but I have nothing else to call your view other than 'pro-abortion.'

Submitted by Anonymous on May 29, 2008 - 11:22am.

Pro-abortion simply means you advocate for abortion.

No my dear. I advocate for women having a CHOICE. Wether it be abort, give birth and parent, or give birth and put up for adoption, it's all the same to me.

Pro-choice is a misuse of the word choice.

Nonsense. Anti abortion advocates are opposed to women having any choice but birth in the matter.

It pretends that if one is opposed to abortion
that person is opposed to choice in a broad-sense.

Well, you are half right. Anti-abortion activists are opposed to just abortion. They are often all for ontraception and comphrehensive sex ed. But "anti choice" is a person opposed to ALL choices-contraception,comphrensive sex ed,even IVF-but birth.

The proof is that the term "anti-choice" is all too commonly used, and it is a narrow view, full of illegitimate assumptions.

I also wish the bloggers would diffrentiate between the two. I did try arguing this matter with one blogger, but she refused to change her ways.

Funny how I have been able to dialog with you even while being called 'anti-choice' when, meanwhile, it is a more incorrect term than 'pro-abortion.'

Sorry,but cheap shots don't count as "dialog". Because respect is a two-way street.

Submitted by ruthless on May 29, 2008 - 2:53pm.

supports informing and providing a pregnant woman every option, but never pushing her or misinforming her towards anything she doesn't want.

That's why we don't trust the pro-life crisis pregnancy centers. Because their mission is to push her away from abortion in any way they see fit.

Not all of them lie, or misinform, but they ususally use the "abortion is murder" rationale, either implicitly or explicitly.

The "abortion is murder" rationale is what I deconstruct in my above writings and blog.

Submitted by Harry834 on May 28, 2008 - 7:16pm.

is abortion murder, or not?

Submitted by Harry834 on May 28, 2008 - 2:58pm.

is abortion murder, or not?

I'll never stop asking this question

Submitted by Harry834 on May 28, 2008 - 2:59pm.

I have an opinion on whether abortion is murder or not. It's not a legal opinion, but a medical and moral opinion.

I believe you are asking 'is it murder' because you want to come back with guns-a-blazin' about how 'pro-lifers want to send women to jail.'

Forgive me for not wanting to get into that fruitless discussion (again).

Submitted by Anonymous on May 29, 2008 - 11:31am.

"you want to come back with guns-a-blazin' about how 'pro-lifers want to send women to jail.'"

No, no, no - I actually acknowledge that pro-lifers don't want to send women to jail.

And that's my problem.

They SHOULD want these women to go jail, the same way we all want ANY murderer to go to jail.

Submitted by Harry834 on May 29, 2008 - 4:49pm.

"I have an opinion on whether abortion is murder or not. It's not a legal opinion, but a medical and moral opinion."

So what is that opinion?

In your medical, moral view - is abortion murder or not?

Submitted by Harry834 on May 30, 2008 - 2:12am.

I would suggest that the pro-lifer's concerns become more valid (but not necessarily mandatory) in the late stages of pregnancy.

However the majority of abortions happen early on - and more so if abortion is not forbidden.

I would think that rational pro-lifers could tell the difference between early and late abortion.

However, I'm not saying I trust laws like the so-called "partial-birth" abortion ban. The federal ban says that the procedure is "never medically necessary" which is a dangerous assumption to force on doctors.

Other criticisms I leave for others to make.

I will say that I'm concerned about those stories about "non-still births pushed in the garbage bag".

I'm not saying I fully believe them yet, but I'm concerned.

Late-term abortion is a tricky thing...but it is also something women are not casual about at all (not that early-term is necessarily casual). If abortion takes place in late term, chances are it is with a woman who wanted her pregnancy (why else would she wait 8-9 months?) but something had gone horribly wrong medically - a fetal defect, or health risk to mother.

Depending on the individual case, a late-term abortion may or may not be the best health decision for a specific woman in this scenario. The doctor must evaluate risks and benefits, then communicate these fully to the woman, then together they make the decision - with a general preference for letting the woman lead the way in making this decision.

----

When Congress forbids one of their medical options - for the most emotional, non-rational reasons ever - I get scared for that woman and her doctor.

Submitted by Harry834 on May 28, 2008 - 3:47pm.

When DOES life begin, then? Scientifically speaking, of course.

Scientifically speaking... what do you mean by "life"?  Do you mean the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual?  A state of living characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction?  The quality that distinguishes a vital and functional plant or animal from a dead body?  Or a specific part or aspect of the process of living? 

I do know that without question, a pregnant woman's life is valid and sacred regardless of whether or not her pregnancy is wanted.

Submitted by Mellankelly1 on May 22, 2008 - 9:37pm.

"I do know that without question, a pregnant woman's life is valid and sacred regardless of whether or not her pregnancy is wanted."

Let's acknowledge the life in front of us, instead of the debateable "life" which we cannot agree is a murder victim.

I'm working on a lengthy blog post analysing this issue. I will link y'all when I'm done writing...

Submitted by Harry834 on May 22, 2008 - 10:22pm.

I'm working on a lengthy blog post analysing this issue. I will link y'all when I'm done writing...

I'm looking forward to that!

Submitted by Mellankelly1 on May 26, 2008 - 2:32pm.

Only through mind-numbing stupidity could someone suggest that when human sperm and human eggs unite they produce something that is only “potential human life.”
If the word “potential” is suggesting that the unborn is only potentially alive, that is disproved. Even in the earliest stages of pregnancy, sonograms show movements and heartbeats that do not belong to the woman. Whatever else the fetus is, it is impossible to logically argue that it is not, at least, alive.

On the other hand, for “potential” to be referring to the word human, a fetus would have to have the potential of becoming either a human being or some other form of life. Perhaps a parrot or a spider. Of course, the problem is that there is no record of such a thing having ever occurred.

So while it may be reasonable to say that a fetus is a potential major league baseball star or a potential school teacher, it is idiotic to say that a fetus is a potential human being. If for no other reason, the fetus is a living human being because that is the only thing it can be.

Also, if the issue is “development,” let’s not forget that human beings develop for their entire lives. A fetus is less developed than a newborn just as a child is less developed than an . But being less developed than an does not mean that a child is any less a human being. That’s also true of the unborn.

Pro-lifers aren’t the only ones who know that it is a baby who is killed in an abortion. At a National Abortion Federation conference in Philadelphia during September of 1994, Texas abortion clinic director, Charlotte Taft, said, “When [a pro-choice activist in the Dallas community] came into our clinic – we were inviting her to learn more about abortions – this is a quote from this woman – she said, ‘If I believed that abortion was the deliberate ending of a potential human life, I could not be pro-choice.’ I said, ‘It would be best for you not to see a sonogram.’”

Less than two years later, at another National Abortion Federation conference in San Francisco, a New York abortion clinic director, Merle Hoffman, stated “...I mean, we are talking about an abortion here. And uh, also that the staff is uncomfortable when a patient said, ‘I think I’m my baby.’ So I’m comfortable with saying, ‘Yes, you are, and how do you feel about that?’

Submitted by prolife on May 30, 2008 - 9:51am.

to win an argument because pro-choicers KNOW what the fetus is. You aren't telling us anything new.

And you are simply being silly over the "potential human life" question. The union of sperm and egg doesn't guarantee childbirth 9 months later. Only a fraction of fertilized oocytes implant in the uterus and begin pregnancy. Only a fraction of those continue to develop past the twelveth week of pregnancy, long enough for the woman to find out she is pregnant.
But that still isn't enough because a percentage of those fetuses will miscarry before viability. A percentage of the fetuses who survive past viability will have developed a fatal defect which will either cause a need for a late term abortion, or they will die just prior to or during delivery, or soon after they are delivered.
THAT is what is meant by "potential human life". Lame attempts at snarkism won't help.

Submitted by ruthless on May 30, 2008 - 12:38pm.

So when you say potential human life you mean the fetus will or will not survive? Okay, whatever.
How exactly does that undermine the humanity of the fetus? How does that give you the right to kill it? I'd like to know.

Submitted by prolife on May 30, 2008 - 1:14pm.

when I stare incredulously at the computer monitor and wonder if you've lost your mind. First you accept my explantion and then you say it doesn't matter? I also wonder where the humanity of the fetus comes into it. We know it's human, but that is largely moot because it is not a person and it has no rights.
To conclude, women have many reasons for choosing to terminate the pregnancy, none of which have to be justified to a third party.

Submitted by ruthless on May 30, 2008 - 1:48pm.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life022.html
to answer your question that you can kill an unborn baby because it isn't a person.
http://www.justthefacts.org/clar.asp

Submitted by prolife on May 30, 2008 - 2:33pm.

Isn't there one pro life/anti abortion site out there that relies on data-based science instead of pseudoscience? I realize the right wing has developed it's own little parallel world in the past few decades, but sites you linked to are beyond ridiculous.

Submitted by ruthless on May 30, 2008 - 10:01pm.

How exactly? I looked completely logical to me.

Submitted by prolife on May 30, 2008 - 10:24pm.

And if you and the other pro-choicers really know what the fetus is, there is something seriously wrong, because you find no problem with terminating a little human life.

Submitted by prolife on May 30, 2008 - 1:15pm.

And if you and the other pro-choicers really know what the fetus is, there is something seriously wrong

Hey, I am pro-choice and I've been pregnant four times; given birth three times and terminated a pregnancy once.  I am well aware of human reproduction and I'm perfectly fine with not only the termination of my pregnancy, but abortion in general.  You may opine that there is something wrong with me and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.  However, you must know that an opinion does not a fact make.

because you find no problem with terminating a little human life.

Anti-abortionists and their little adjectives... it's so cute!  I have absolutely no issue with a woman terminating her pregnancy...  regardless of whatever adjectives and/or qualifiers you use to describe it.

Submitted by Mellankelly1 on May 30, 2008 - 1:56pm.

Um.. a 'little human being' is what it is. It's definitely little, and you've said yourself that it was a human being.

Submitted by prolife on May 30, 2008 - 2:28pm.

Um... little (adjective) human (adjective) being (noun).  Yes, if the zygote/embryo/fetus is human, it is most certainly a member of the family Hominidae.   I stand by my statement that you can continue to use adjectives and qualifiers to describe human reproduction but a fetus is a fetus is fetus and before that it is a blastocyst, zygote and an embryo.  Again, what is your point?

Submitted by Mellankelly1 on May 30, 2008 - 2:52pm.

my point was that I wasn't trying to make it sound 'cute'.
'little human being' is accurate, because the fetus and blastocyst and zygote and embryo, are all the same human being, at various stages in development. And they are all little.

Submitted by prolife on May 30, 2008 - 3:56pm.

how much jail time should she get?

how much for the doctor?

If these two sentences differ, why?

Submitted by Harry834 on May 30, 2008 - 4:12pm.

I replied to your comment before this.

Submitted by prolife on May 30, 2008 - 5:20pm.

I'm seriously asking, no sarcasm. I want to see your response to my question.

Submitted by Harry834 on May 30, 2008 - 5:56pm.

can I get an answer from you in two weeks, prolife?

my blog

and my email: harrynagendra@hotmail.com

My professors have accomadated me when I had an impossible assignment.

So I'll cut you the same slack...

So...when and where do you think you'll have the answer to my question

 

Submitted by Harry834 on May 30, 2008 - 6:01pm.

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